Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)
Come on a ride along with a Veteran Homicide Detective as the twists and turns of the job suddenly end his career and nearly his life; discover how something wonderful is born out of the Darkness. Embark on the journey from helping people on their worst days, to bringing life, excitement and smiles on their best days.
Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)
A Cops Wife Tells All: Secrets, Struggles and the Fight to Survive
What happens when the badge comes home? In this raw, unfiltered conversation, I invite my wife Stacey to share what it's really like being married to a police officer for 21 years—and she doesn't hold back.
From our early days of naïve optimism to the devastating reality check of my mentor's line-of-duty death, Stacey reveals how policing gradually transformed me from an outgoing, patient husband into someone cynical and explosive. "You just changed," she explains, describing how our home became a place where she and our children walked on eggshells, constantly monitoring noise levels and their behavior to avoid triggering my outbursts after difficult shifts.
The most powerful moments come when Stacey admits she sometimes preferred when I wasn't home: "It was kind of peaceful when you weren't there." She details the constant fear that plagued her, especially after witnessing a fellow officer's funeral: "Praying that I never had to sit there as a wife with our children." My years working child abuse cases brought the darkest period, with Stacey only learning about my suicidal thoughts years later through this podcast.
Yet amid these difficult truths emerges a story of resilience and healing. Stacey describes with wonder the gradual return of "the Aaron before police work" since my retirement—glimpses of lightness, patience, and joy she thought were gone forever. Our conversation offers hope to other law enforcement families navigating similar challenges, with Stacey's advice to "press in" rather than accept toxic patterns as inevitable.
Whether you're connected to law enforcement or not, this episode speaks to anyone whose profession has taken over their identity at the expense of those they love most. Share your experiences with us at murders2music@gmail.com or find us on Instagram @murders2music.
Gift For You!!! Murders to Music will be releasing "SNAPSHOTS" periodcally to keep you entertained throughout the week! Snapshots will be short, concise bonus episodes containing funny stories, tid bits of brilliance and magical moments!!! Give them a listen and keep up on the tea!
Hi, I'm Aaron your host and I would love to invite you to leave a review, send some fan mail or email me at Murder2Music@gmail.com. Does something I'm saying resonate with you...Tell me about it! Is there something you want to hear more about...Tell me about it! This show is to provide value, education and entertainment and hopefully find its way to the WORLD! Share, Like and Love the Murders to Music Podcast!
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Mergers to Music podcast. My name is Aaron, I'm your host and I've got a pretty awesome show for you tonight. Tonight I've got a very special guest, the one and only Well, I can't even tell you who it is yet I've got to hype this up. So I've got a very special guest on the show who's got a lot of insight, a lot of very special knowledge that she wants to share with you guys tonight and I think, really I think, this interview is going to change the world. You know she's a very lucky woman and I tell her that all the time. I'm like you're a well-kept, very lucky woman. I let her know every day and I'm talking about my wife. My wife is on tonight and you know I wanted to spend a couple of minutes talking about. I want to talk about the whole being a cop's wife thing. Obviously, we were married before I was a cop and then I became a cop and transitioned out of law enforcement into the civilian world and into just a different pace and walk of life. I just want to talk about the things pace and walk of life and I just want to talk about the things you know.
Speaker 1:Earlier today. We were driving from Anchorage, alaska, down to the peninsula and she was. We were talking about this podcast and she's like you know I'm nervous, and so I turned on the recorder and I just started talking and we just had this awesome casual conversation and it was really cool and I planned on using that for the podcast tonight, but when I did the playback couldn't understand anything that she was saying and it has something to do with the road noise and you know iPhone recorder. So we're not going to try to recreate that moment, but we do want to talk about some of the same topics.
Speaker 1:So here we go, guys, and you don't have to be a cop or a cop's wife to figure this out and to relate to what we're going to talk about. And I think you'll see. But here we go. So what's it like to be a cop's wife? So that's my wife, stacey, and we were married in 1999. I became a cop in 2002. And I retired three years ago I guess two and a half years ago and she was with me for the whole thing. So thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me If I could sing. I was going to break out in song, were you? What song were you going to sing? I was going to sing change the world. Oh yeah, you want to sing it Change the world. That was good, that's all I know that was good If you. I was going to like hum it behind you when you said our podcast was going to change the world.
Speaker 1:You could have just hummed the first few bars of amazing grace. It would have been about the same Okay. Anyway so thanks, babe, for coming on. So let's talk about this. So we met in 99, right, and I wasn't a cop yet. Tell me about getting to know me and what I was like pre-cop and then up to the move to Alaska and starting into law enforcement. What was that like for you, and did you have any fears or doubts or concerns being a new cop's wife, or at least the prospective new cop's wife?
Speaker 2:Well, we met in 98. We got married in 99. Whatever, you know, when I met you, you were working loss prevention. Your passion and dream was to be a police officer. I always knew that this was not something I didn't know. Going into dating you, even like even before I dated you, that was your passion. So I knew what I was getting into. I knew your life's goal, I knew your passions, your drives and I supported them. Like, to me, that was, uh, a great career path. It was a path of integrity, it was, it was good, it was a good person doing good work type of job, totally in support of it.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as fears and worries, I I was naive, I was a baby. I knew what I knew police work to be and I had a respect for authority and respect for police officers and I am very pro police. I had very positive outlook on that profession. So, no, I mean, obviously everybody knows that this is a risky job and there are risks, but you don't necessarily have to face that. It's like knowing that death is a thing, but when you're a teenager you're invincible. I knew there were risks but I didn't really have to truly face them at that point. So I just thought it was a great career path and you were going to be a cop and I was going to be a teacher. We were like total American cliche family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's either a cop and teacher or a cop and a nurse. One of the two.
Speaker 2:I think the firemen get the nurses. Sorry, babe, sometimes cops get them.
Speaker 1:So, uh, there, I am right we moved back to Alaska and I become that police officer in 2002. So once I'm on the job, I'm on the job for a short period of time when, uh, you know, things change and we're going to get to John Watson's death here in a second. But immediately when I started, um, what was my attitude like? And a lot of these questions. I've never asked her, so I don't even know the answers, but like, what was your perception of me when we started? And we're going to talk about, maybe, how that same perception was at the end, right Before I got out.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I had the uttermost faith in you in this career field. I mean, we literally sold everything, picked up and moved for the interview. You weren't even hired yet and we moved here. So, here being Alaska, um cause, we're literally in Alaska now.
Speaker 2:So it feels appropriate yeah Um we picked up and moved for the interview. You didn't even get offered a job. So I mean, we both knew this was. This was the calling. It was God ordained, literally. So I feel like I was excited. I was scared to move and be in a new place without family, but you had family and I was just going to support you.
Speaker 2:That was my kind of wifely duty you go where your husband goes. You were the sole provider and there was a lot of beauty in being together and starting our own life together and you were very gung ho about police work and those first years I didn't really know what I wanted to do. There wasn't a lot of teaching jobs available in cities in Alaska. You had to go remote villages, which wasn't really an option for me. So I was floundering a little bit like thinking about career. We didn't have kids or anything, but you worked a lot and trained a lot and worked overtime a lot and but I I did have community in it. So it was kind of like those were my people too. So it was good it was, even though you've worked.
Speaker 1:So my attitude would be gung ho. What was my attitude like? What was my personality like?
Speaker 2:I don't think I knew some of the truth of that Maybe other people's perspective as we've aged and heard stories from these people and how people had described you in that time. I mean even listening to your podcast. You talk about writing 60 tickets or whatever in a shift and that was not the norm. You were definitely black and white and a rule follower and you are going to enforce the laws. But I've kind of supported that too. I don't know. I grew up and just thought that's what you do. You enforce the laws and you write the tickets and you I didn't think there was anything wrong with that. It's just funny now to look back and think about how maybe gung ho you were.
Speaker 1:I was definitely black and white. In 2002, I believe it was maybe 2003, John Watson was killed in the line of duty and we were in Arizona at the time and I'll just tell a quick backstory on that. So, John Watson, when I was 13, I started the Explorer post and uh, at the Kenai police department and I rode thousands of hours with this officer named John Watson and that was between maybe in 13 and 17 years old and he was really a mentor for me. And then I moved away and when I came back to be a cop, he was one of my field training officers and I'm on the job for about a year.
Speaker 1:It's Christmas time. I want to take some time off to go on vacation with Stace, to go down and visit her family in Arizona, and we go down to Arizona. But John Watson had to cover my shift on Christmas night and he didn't want to, but he was forced to and was told to so I could go on vacation and he didn't want to go work that night because that was his wife's birthday. And John went to work that night but never came home and he was killed in the line of duty by a suspect that took John's own gun and shot John with his own gun and for years I held on to that grief and I held on to that guilt that it was my fault that John got killed. And this whole story is on one of my episodes called the Moose, the Mourning and the Mentor, and you guys can hear that whole story and kind of how I came through that and how the therapy helped me.
Speaker 1:But let's talk about your perspective of that time, because I think that it was still early on in my career. We're only a year or two in and that changed the trajectory, at least, of my life and I want to hear what your perspective was. So let's put ourselves in Arizona, Christmas, the day after Christmas, December 26th, when we get that phone call. What was that whole experience like for you?
Speaker 2:That was a really tough time because, like immediately of you receiving that call, it's devastating news. It's not feeling like reality, there's shock. We're trying to figure out what to do. What are our options. My family obviously doesn't want us to leave, but we need to get out of there as soon as possible. And trying to figure out and navigate all of that, changing tickets and it's stressful and the whole time.
Speaker 2:I just remember you being in such grief. This was, I mean. I had a relationship with John. We were I would say we were friendly and friends. I knew him only for those few short years that you were working there at the department, but we, we were friends.
Speaker 2:But you were grieving a longtime mentor and somebody you loved and respected, and watching you struggle and I could see that you already felt responsible in blaming yourself and then, on the other side of that same thing, wishing you were there to help your other brothers who were also grieving the loss of a friend, mentor, brother. And so it was. It was hard. I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to say, I don't know how to act. This is all very new to me.
Speaker 2:I've never really had anybody close to me die like that and I didn't. I didn't even know how to process just that piece of it for myself, much less you dealing with somebody that you knew so closely and loved and knowing that it kind of was. I did feel a little bit responsible and blamed myself that we were on this trip because of me and I know they let you go on this vacation because of me because they wanted me to be able to see my family. We moved a long way and I was missing them and I think they knew. So they let us go on this trip so that I could see my family and I felt bad. I felt bad that this happened while we were away for me.
Speaker 1:And then we had the funeral. And, uh, you were there. So I got back to Alaska. Right by the time I get back to Alaska, it's 36 hours old and the department is obviously still grieving. We still have people standing by on John's body taking turns, watching him being with him, and then we have the funeral. Um, I want to hear your perspective and thoughts on that funeral. I have my own, but I want to hear what yours are.
Speaker 2:That funeral was very heavy and very. It was life-changing for me too, because I felt like I was being forced to face a reality that just seems so far off and so obscure, like that'll never happen. Yeah, it could, but it won't. And here is somebody I know in our small town who is murdered and it just seems so surreal and his final call that they put out in the service. There's shots that are fired Like I'm a tribute and then they call his badge number and it's silent and it was. It really is one of the worst things I ever said for grieving for Kathy and the kids and their family, grieving for you and the other police who lost a best friend and brother, and then just thanking God that it wasn't you, praying that I never had to sit there as a wife with our children, who we didn't have yet, but I wanted children. We didn't have yet, but I wanted children and I just thought, dear lord, please don't ever let me have to sit through this the.
Speaker 1:So that funeral for me, it changed a lot of things in my. There was a lot of internal change in me and honestly I think that's where my career started to spiral ultimately out of control, which led to me getting out of law enforcement, and a lot of that was due to that survivor's guilt or that guilt that I believe it was my fault. John was there that night. I've since dealt with that and processed that. But from a wife's perspective, after sitting through that funeral and understanding the reality that your husband may not come home, how did that change? Prior to this, you were naive. How did that moment in time or did that moment in time change your future perspective and fears about having a cop as a husband?
Speaker 2:I mean definitely it was very tangible, real fear, right. Thinking that that could happen to you or to any other of the husbands and wives that worked in the police department and just thinking that they were putting their lives on the line was very scary. I not only didn't want to lose you, I didn't want to lose any of our friends. I think I protected myself by making my world smaller and trying to not really see or know or understand the violence in the world or the political issues. I tried to not watch the news and to just really like insulate myself from really knowing what was going on and just prayed a lot.
Speaker 1:How did it increase your fears on a daily basis of me coming home? Was there a fear of me not coming home? Now that you've actually seen, let's put somebody in the ground. Was that ever a fear for you? And then I'll talk about the kids, but was that ever a fear for you in my 21 year career?
Speaker 2:Yes, always. I thought like I would have little thoughts like if I didn't kiss you or you didn't kiss me, goodbye, whoever was responsible for the kiss. If it didn't happen, I would. I would think I hope that I have tomorrow for that kiss. Or if we had left in not so great terms or if there was any turmoil, I would just think about it like this is not what I want the last interaction to be, and the fact that I thought that made me realize how much I worried that those were my last interactions.
Speaker 1:So our kids were super small then. So in 2010, we moved down to the Pacific Northwest Portland Oregon area for me to become a police officer in a much larger department and at that point had you seen a change in me, in my personality not working with Gresham, but up until that point, had you seen a change in my personality and just my mannerisms and the way that I interacted with the world?
Speaker 2:first met you, even though you were doing loss prevention, you were outgoing and friendly and hospitable and you were kind of a people person, extroverted. You loved music and all these things that made you interact with the world and people and slowly I feel like you became more closed off and cynical and not very trusting of people, not really caring to interact with people. You know, always kind of on the defense and you know the things that you've even talked about in your podcast sitting with your back to the wall or always expecting the worst out of people. Like doing that job just changed you. It changed you into being this like harder, um, rougher person and even our own interactions with each other we talk about like that bullet point, talking of communication style very, you call it tactical communication. You just weren't the same easygoing, fun, loving, maybe more patient. You just change. Like you just changed, like you just changed. You worked so hard and gave yourself to your job wholeheartedly that I felt like you became the job.
Speaker 1:And I think during that time, from my perspective, I could see and feel myself changing. But it's because I'm a cop and that's just what I do and I have to be this way in order to stay alive. And that's just what I do and I have to be this way in order to stay alive. And you know, I I believed the whole world was A threat, you know, and they beat that isn't do they beat that into us at the Academy. So I totally see that changing.
Speaker 1:But now I come down to Oregon and in Oregon it is obviously a very busy police department and we have a very high violent crime rate. And uh, and when and when I went into that, there's obviously the fear, I mean of me getting shot. I got shot at and you know people fighting for my gun. The same way that John Watson got killed, I got people fighting me grabbing my gun when I'm on the ground. Um, in hearing those stories, uh, how did, how did that make you feel as a wife? And now you've got kids that are old enough to start to see me on the news and see the news broadcast. And aggression, police officer, you know, hurt in the line of duty or whatever it may be. How was it being a stay at home mom during this period of our lives?
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like you know, know, kind of that insulated from the world mentality. It definitely carried over to living in oregon. You know, don't watch the news. You will see so much wickedness and evilness in the world and I didn't want to know that side of the world. I didn't want to know the threats that you were living in, and so I closed myself off from a lot of the realities. Um, but obviously I still know the truth, even if I don't want to face it.
Speaker 2:There was pieces of me that liked the big city idea. I liked the idea that there's more officers and there's more people on patrol and there's more resources and bigger cities around. We're right next to Portland, they have helicopters and all kinds of cool stuff around. We're right next to Portland, they have helicopters and all kinds of cool stuff. And it felt like you weren't going to be in the remote rural Alaska on your own trying to survive. But then the reality of the crime per capita I guess would be the words is like it was so much higher and those same crimes were all in Alaska. It just felt like now you're doing so many more serious calls and it was so constant that I think I actually got more scared there with the potential and the violent people in your city was very scary. In your city was very scary. And as a mom, the last thing you want to ever think about and tell your kids that their dad got killed. And I mean you had told me one day that you had to pick people in the department to come sit with me if you got hurt in the line of duty. And you told me their names and it made me hope that they never came over Like I never had to see them and and it almost be like man, if he ever knocks on my door I'm going to be freaked out Like there was worries that were there and thoughts that were there constantly and then thinking about the kids or thinking about their worries and stresses as they slowly got to know more about what police officers do. You know they don't just go protect and serve everybody that they. There is a lot of violence in that career field and as our kids got more aware to the violent parts, I tried to shield them from it as much as I could.
Speaker 2:If they saw you on the news, thankfully it looked like you were, you know, guiding traffic or something. They don't know the truth of the actual story per se and they obviously thought dad was a hero. They he could do no wrong. Thought dad was a hero. They he could do no wrong. He was a policeman and he had a police car and everything about his job was cool and they even got to go to the police department and stand in a cell Like everything was just so cool to kids.
Speaker 2:But I know they had fears because they would make comments. They would say little things even from a young age, like where's dad? If you could tell they were questioning sometimes and asking just to make sure, even though you may have come home and only been home two, three hours, grab a quick nap and go back to work for a long shift. They never saw you, so they don't know that and they it never occurred to me that they don't always know where you are, because I got to see you, you came in you, I sent you back off to work, but they were still asleep. They missed that whole thing and they would worry, they would wonder, and I I didn't always catch it, but a lot of times you could you could see it in them when they were worried if they hadn't seen you or hadn't heard from you, so it would. It was on their minds too.
Speaker 1:We had a lot of trials and tribulations throughout our marriage, and a lot of it, you know, at the time, was your fault. Uh, and that's how I felt hindsight being 2020, it was me and it was a by-product of where I was at. But what was it like living with me during those years? Um, you know, we could have been divorced 15 times and if I was the one making the decisions, we would have been, but it's only because of your grace and your faith that we're still married. What were those times like for you as a wife, when I was a complete asshole and, uh, you know, hated myself? So what were those times like?
Speaker 2:Well, I've loved you the whole time, our whole marriage. I didn't always love our interactions, I guess. Um, I think I I think I really wanted to be a good wife and I wanted to support you and when, sometimes unkind interactions or behaviors, or Like what I don't know, Like if you were frustrated or you maybe yell too much or be kind of in a bitey mood, or whatever.
Speaker 2:I would just attribute it to well, he hasn't slept, or this or that. I would make excuses for you. I'd make excuses for you with our kids. I would keep things from you and not communicate everything so that you didn't have more weight on your plate. I feel like I had to protect you from the mundaneness of family issues or life issues and just let you only have to worry about work stuff. I don't make requests of you. I wouldn't ask you to do things or go to things or be at things, or if you, if something was coming up, I would say hey, if you want to go to this, you know it's Thursday at seven. I know you might be busy or working, so no pressure. Like I just always tried to not be another stress in your life. I tried to not make the kids be another stress.
Speaker 2:Some of those years were really rough as far as your maybe mental state. I don't think I really knew it at the time that it was your mental state. It's like you just couldn't handle one more thing and I didn't want that to be the thing that broke you. There were times that you were very candid and tell me like this is going to kill me. I can't keep up like this, I can't work like this. So then I would try harder to make everything that I could easier for you.
Speaker 2:I do feel like my faith helped me prioritize my commitment to our marriage and not the feeling or the moment of the marriage, and I felt that it was my job to be a submissive, respectful wife and to take care of you, even when you couldn't take care of me. But there were times that you did take care of me, there were times that were good. So you know, we each people say marriage is 50-50, and I say no, it's whatever you can give, Whatever I have to give, I give, and whatever you have to give, you give. And the only reason the marriage ever lasts is because we both didn't give up at the same time.
Speaker 1:Earlier, you mentioned about walking on eggshells and you were much more polite in this description of me than you were the first time around. But you talk about walking on eggshells and the kids walking on eggshells. Yeah, all of that, and somebody out there listening. You know whether they're on the wife end or the husband end of this conversation and whether you're a cop or a pharmacist or a tow truck driver, it doesn't really matter. You know we can all be jerks and not maybe not treat our family or maybe give our family, in my case, what was left over.
Speaker 1:We go to work, we work hard for 12 hours. As men, we want to be. Whatever we are, we have our identity, we sink it in, we work around the clock, we miss family events because that's just what we do, and then when we get home we're so exhausted, we're complete pricks and cause our family a lot of grief and it's not fair. But we do it and we know we do it and we turn around and do it again and it's really hard for us to break that cycle. What was it like as a wife walking on eggshells, not knowing that if I was going to be explosive, blow up and start yelling, screaming and throwing things?
Speaker 2:I feel like I was a single parent a lot. I did a lot of it by myself, sometimes by choice, like I said, I just left things out and didn't include you. Sometimes by choice, like I said, I just left things out and didn't include you. Um, there were times when you would work long shifts and I kind of liked it that you weren't home, right, I didn't have to wonder or worry or wait. It was kind of peaceful when you weren't there. On some of those times that were a little more stressful, especially if your caseload was more stressful Um, I also think I attributed a little bit to the eggshells with the kids, specifically because I was so worried about keeping the peace with you.
Speaker 2:I would tell the kids over and over and over please be quiet, be quiet. Dad's sleeping. We have to be quiet. Don't bounce that ball, don't do this, don't do that. We have to be quiet. We have to be quiet. Dad's sleeping. And I attributed like if you don't get enough sleep, then that makes everything worse. It's like being hangry. I just whatever I could do to try to make sure you were at your best, whatever that was, if you got an extra 15 minutes of sleep or an extra hour of sleep, man, that could change the world for you. So I had to do my part, and so I feel like that made it even for the kids to be like maybe it's okay if dad's not home Cause then I don't have to be so quiet, I can play loud, I can bounce the ball, I can run, I can whatever. And so it wasn't always the easiest when you were there, and sometimes it was easier if you weren't there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what? Um, 2012 was a bad season of my life and you know now that I was suicidal. Did you know then that I was suicidal?
Speaker 2:You know, you went to that conference. We were really struggling in our marriage at the time and I found a babysitter and I went with you to the conference. I got on the train and I met you there and I remember you coming out of that conference and telling me oh my gosh, I didn't even know. I didn't even know how bad I was. I took this class. There was these, you know, 20 items, symptoms. You know how many apply to you and you're like, oh, they almost all applied to me. And so I felt like we had like this really candid conversation. You were really raw and real and honest with me and shared your heart in that moment about where your struggle was, that you didn't have to pretend you were this you know amazing tough guy cop and I felt like, wow, we're going to get somewhere. But I never knew about the incident of literal suicidal thoughts and out in the woods and some of the things that you have described on your podcast. I didn't know that until I listened to your podcast described on your podcast.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that until I listened to your podcast. What a way to find out what she's talking about is in 2012, I went to a national DRE conference in Seattle, washington and at the time there was a gentleman there named Steve Redman who was Washington State Patrol, I believe, or say it was Seattle PD, and he was this seven foot tall, good looking V shaped guy, mid forties tall, motorcycle boots, and he's on stage talking about mental health and we met. Nobody wanted to hear about mental health, but I knew that my life was, you know, circling the drain and, uh, it was about that time that I'm in the woods with a gun in my mouth and I I'm searching for something to keep me alive. And I go and I listened to a story and he talks about how he succumbed to the pressures of the job, turned to alcohol, turned to drugs, you know, held his family hostage, held himself hostage, was going to kill himself. His own SWAT team came, they talked him out, he got recovery and healing and he's back on the job and he was out promoting mental health awareness. And when he put up that list of 20 symptoms of are you in trouble, like 18 of them applied to me, and that's when I realized this issue wasn't Stacy's problem, it wasn't the kid's problem, it was my problem and I'm the one to blame and I need to start righting the wrongs Now. That doesn't mean I did it. I continued another 10 years of being a complete dick and blaming everybody else for my own problems, but at least I identified it in that moment.
Speaker 1:Well, I learned about a month and a half ago that in December 31st 2022, steve killed himself, he gave into his demons and he lost the battle. His charity that he started for mental health is continuing. It's ongoing. It's an 800 number crisis line that Washington police officers and firefighters can call and they get a real life police officer or firefighter that has been trained in mental health counseling to answer their calls and talk them off that ledge. And it's so much better when you're talking to somebody that understands and has been in the trenches and bled with you. It's cool, anyway.
Speaker 1:So that's Steve Redman. I did a podcast on it. It was a snapshot and I think I put Steve's name in there, but so let's fast forward to the end. So in the end, my last 11 years spent homicide child abuse detective and that's when I feel my world got really dark. What were the changes you were seeing in me as a person over those 11 years, and especially towards the end, the last three, four years? Was George Floyd COVID more with less defund, the police murder rate through the roof, me working literally 150 hours a week for four months straight. What was that period like and what changes did you see?
Speaker 2:Well, at first I thought it was going to be a good thing. You were always talking about your work and how most of the issues, most of your clientele, it was self-correcting problems and this is as a patrol officer.
Speaker 2:Yes, and most of your cases and things that you answered calls you went to, you'd be like if we didn't show up, it wouldn't even matter, they would just continue on. Even domestic violence, like most of the time you pull the person away that's being abused and they go back and it's just like this cycle. You felt like the rat race of it all, I guess, or whatever. But then when you started with child abuse, you always said that these were the true victims. They don't have the authority to fight authority when they're a child and they can't get away from their abuser. They can't, they don't have a voice. And so when you were either solving homicides for somebody who had no voice or helping with child abuse crimes because they had no voice, it seemed to like fuel your purpose a little bit more. It seemed to be like your sweet spot. You were very good at it, you were very productive and you really thrived in it.
Speaker 2:But slowly, I feel like the random phone calls and the random tidbits of information that you would call or say or tell me, bits of information that you would call or say or tell me and you would act like you were fine, but the actions were kind of contradictory to your words of being fine. And I felt like, obviously, if you're calling to tell me don't run the dryer at night when you go to bed, that you had been on a call where somebody had an incident that was started from a dryer fire and some kids were killed, or you know a certain toy, a child got hurt, you're like please never get this toy for our kids or this or that. And I feel like in those moments you couldn't separate the job from your own kids. You couldn't process these calls, these deaths, these abuses, whatever they were. You were making it very personal and that was very heavy.
Speaker 2:But if you didn't really talk about it much once you got home, it was like heavy on you, like in the moment, and I felt like I was kind of surprised we didn't talk about some things. And every now and then I think we did talk about one or two things and I would ask you about it and you're like, no, it doesn't bother me. And you have that one story. We talked about the autopsy and if you want me to tell it or you tell it, well, we were talking about autopsies and somebody is asking about the autopsy.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you want me to tell it or you tell it. Well, we were talking about autopsies and somebody was asking about what I do and I'm saying you know, I'm like, well, you know we go to these autopsies and would you go to kid autopsies? You know, yeah, child autopsies. I said it doesn't bother me. I said this you know, child has not less human value. The child is dead. This is a piece of evidence no different than the value of this coffee cup. We need to process it, collect the evidence, bring the people responsible to justice and move on to the next one. That was my mentality and I loved the kid, I loved the people. I did it because I loved it. But when that looking at that body on the autopsy table, it's a piece of evidence. We're going to cut this thing up. We're going to figure out how this happened and we're going to solve the problem and move on.
Speaker 1:I was very cold and in that conversation I said it doesn't bother me. You know, these autopsies don't bother me. Kids, adults, doesn't matter, the cases don't bother me. I could walk into the bowels of hell and see somebody spread out all over that wall and I'm like, all right, let's go grab lunch first, cause I'm really hungry. It just didn't affect me. I said in that conversation you said it does affect you and I said, no, it doesn't. You said, yes, it does, no, it doesn't. Um, you wanted to be right, so I let you be right that you could tell that this was affecting me and affecting my soul and maybe some of the first signs of PTSD.
Speaker 2:I feel like you were always struggling, whether it was to sleep or to turn off your brain, or if you were tapping or shaking or I mean all these little things that were going on. I mean there were times that I felt like maybe you were careless with yourself, because you probably didn't care. You talked about going to a call and not having a bulletproof vest on, and I remember thinking what's wrong with you? You don't, you don't do that and you're like I don't always have time. I'm like you make time, like there were things that you would say or do that would worry me, because I knew it wasn't right but I didn't. I didn't know how to speak up. I didn't know how to force you to have better self-awareness or self-care or for me to maybe make boundaries. That would force you to take care of. Mentality is because you were so steeped in it that this was just what was. This was the card I was dealt.
Speaker 1:So the darkness of like those last, you know, four months on the job when I was working so much, and the last, probably four years when I was super dark and I felt like I was going to die. And I remember telling you guys you know, and in hindsight you said something earlier when we were recording and it I forgot about this completely. But I remember now that I would lay there in bed and constantly make jokes about me dying and I remember telling the kids I'm going to be dead in a year, I'm going to be dead in two years and Keegan rub my back it might be the last time you get to, because I could die tonight. And I remember making those as jokes and, in hindsight, what a crappy thing to do to my kids because they don't understand the perspective. And I never even thought about this until you mentioned earlier today and the frequency that I was doing it.
Speaker 2:I think you thought you were preparing us Like you didn't want us to be caught off guard, which I didn't appreciate. I didn't like the jokes, I didn't want to face that reality. It was already a very real reality. But I think somehow in your mind you didn't want us to be like we had no idea.
Speaker 1:I felt like I was dying. I felt like I felt like I was going to die, Like the stress I couldn't take anymore. I felt like I was going to burst. And you know, those are and I'm sure I've discussed this somewhere over the several hundred therapy sessions that I've had over the last three years, but I never even thought about it until you brought it up today. I remember making all those jokes and feeling literally like I was going to die, you know, and that's probably because internally, my blood pressure was 145 or 185 over 145.
Speaker 2:Probably the best thing that could ever happened is for you to get hurt and get to the doctor. It's like a miracle that we're sitting here.
Speaker 1:So I come out of law enforcement kicking and screaming and I take that first year off and then that's when I actually signed the paperwork. So a year medical leave and then I signed the paperwork. How did you? What changes did you see in me over that first year? And then let's bring it all the way up to today.
Speaker 2:Well, I just talked about how awful living with you was, with the stress and watching you live in complete and utter stress, and I just thought that was the new norm. You live in complete and utter stress and I just thought that was the new norm. So when you came out and obviously you were not happy, it was very dark time, like the loss of identity, all these things, and I was just trying to support you in the process of grieving this career. But even before you started really truly owning and dealing with all of it, you did start to change. There were little changes that I could see the weight being lifted off your shoulders and there was these little glimpses that I was like, wow, that's, that's impressive, that's amazing. I didn't even know that you could look or seem that light. But then, slowly, as you started dealing with the PTS diagnosis and really digging in, even in like that next few months, I even told you one day like I feel like I get a little glimpse of the Aaron before police work, the fun, loving, patient, calm, fun outgoing personality, and I really thought that was gone forever. I would have never thought you could work in a career that was so heavy and so hard, especially since COVID would defund the police and George Floyd and all the political garbage and heaviness.
Speaker 2:I just thought that this was, this was the way life is, and to get those glimpses and have that little bit of hope of like healing and potential lighthearted fun. Erin, it was. It was beautiful, I like it was. It made me feel light and joyful.
Speaker 2:And watching you interact with our kids and listening to stories and you and Addie sitting outside goofing off at lunch one day and hearing her have this lighthearted, funny, silly story about you was the old Erin and it was just like wow, I didn't know that could happen. Gentleness towards me and the kids, your kindness, your contentment with being a father and a husband and watching your faith grow and watching you be so vulnerable and real and honest with me and with our kids and with people, me and with our kids and with people. And it's like this, this passion of just spreading the gospel and spreading truth and spreading awareness and helping people, like you've always been the person who wanted to help people and who knew that, like going through all of this and all this darkness, that you're going to come out the other side and still be using it to help people. It's been really cool.
Speaker 1:I think that the last three years have been a living hell between fighting with the city, realizing that they really don't give a damn and I'm just a number. You know, when it comes down to it it is political and you're an employee number and there's a profits and loss statement and their job is to keep the profits column bigger than the loss column. And that is not a bitter Aaron talking, that's just reality. And if you've been through the system, you understand what I'm saying. But in all of that and looking back on all those calls that I went on and 12 year olds hanging themselves because they didn't eat their vegetables and mom took away the cell phone and me having to cut her down or help get her down, I didn't understand at the time why all those things were happening. I didn't understand that. You know what. God, why are you putting me through? Why am I having to experience this and just the death and the devastation and the darkness that I experienced, but then to come out and to go through all this therapy and understanding, able to process those different calls and change the trauma relationship that I have and a trauma relationship is nothing more than a relationship that you have with a set of circumstances or experiences, right. So it's the emotional baggage that comes with whatever occurred. You get into a car crash. It shocks you and, as a result, you are scared to go down the road and drive. And every time you see a car with four wheels you pee yourself. That is the trauma baggage that comes with it. Able to pee yourself, that is the trauma baggage that comes with it. Well, you can reprocess that trauma and change your relationship. So the fact you got into this tragic car crash will never change, but the way you feel about it can. You were doing nothing wrong. You were driving down the road. You got T-boned. You've driven down that same road a thousand times since and before. You never got T-boned any other times. It that same road a thousand times since and before. You never got T-boned any other times. It was just the circumstances of the day. Yeah, all that makes sense. All of a sudden, you've changed your relationship with that trauma and that's what I had to do.
Speaker 1:And I bring all this up because there's got to be a silver lining in everything, all the hell that I've been through, from John Watson getting killed to getting shot at, to the tragic call, to the critical incidents, to the holding people when they die, to the given CPR, to the baby deaths, all of that stuff. There's a silver lining. People always wonder why does God let bad things happen? There's something good comes out of it and that's the purpose of this podcast is to use my pain for a purpose. For example, that 12-year-old little girl, that 12-year-old little girl that hung herself.
Speaker 1:It was in my last couple of years of work. It was a horrible call for me and everybody that was on it. That call had a ton of emotional baggage attached to it and I couldn't even talk about it without crying. It was devastating. But I processed that in therapy because I've got an amazing therapist who is absolute 10 and she's culturally competent in law enforcement. She gets it and she helped me process that. Well, it wasn't a week later that I'm going through cell phone messages of my daughter, my 12, 13 year old daughter, and she's talking about wanting to kill herself and cutting.
Speaker 1:And because I had that experience on the job and I was able to process that in the right time and clear that emotional baggage, I can now open up the bandwidth to be there for my daughter and I honestly, stace, don't believe that we may not have a daughter had she may be dead had I not went through this, because, had I still been at work, I would have been that despondent asshole that was so caught up in his moment and so worried about saving the world for everybody else that I wasn't willing to save my own and I didn't even see it.
Speaker 1:I was completely snowblind to the fact that I was absent and I loved everybody, but I was absent and not a willing participant and I left you for so many years being a single parent trying to raise our kids, and when I was around, you guys had to walk on eggshells.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't go off the handle and be a complete prick and I'm sorry for that. Um, it's not right and we see the shit when we're doing it. We know we're doing it, but we continue to do it because we just feel that's what it is and, like I said a minute ago, we give our family what's left and I think that other people can relate. Whether you're a cop or not, pick your freaking profession, it doesn't matter. We give what we can at work and that's where we want to shine and we get home. So often we give our family the scraps and I did that for such a long time. If it wasn't for your faith and your grace, we wouldn't be married today and I wouldn't have a relationship. So I thank you for that. I absolutely love you, um, I love you.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the things I wanted I wanted to bring in this show is from somebody else's perspective. Right, you can hear me talk about it all the time. You can read it in a book. But here's a woman that has lived with me pre-cop the entire career. Every critical incident, every getting shot at every death, every time I came home with blood clothes, whatever it was. She was there Um a lot of times, me making her life a living hell, but her understanding, that thread of faith and just that she loved me for who I was and the wisdom and emotional intelligence to realize this is a byproduct of the job and it's just the way things are going to be. But then to see me on the other side and the transition out of law enforcement, where I came kicking and screaming, but finding that silver lining and turning around and, quite frankly, being a much sexier and better man than I was before we got married and much funnier too. Being a much sexier and better man than I was before we got married and much funnier too. So all of those things. You know she's a very lucky woman and I tell her that all the time. I'm like you're a well-kept, very lucky woman. I let her know every day. So it's good to hear that there's that transition.
Speaker 1:I want other people out there to recognize that, no matter where you're at right now in your world, no matter what it's like every time you go to that shift or you get that mandatory overtime shift or you're working long hours or no matter how much of a prick you are at home, recognize those things and understand that there's life beyond whatever it is that you're doing now. You are not stuck in your career. You are not stuck as a cop. You have so many skills. You're not stuck in whatever set of circumstances. You're in. Wives listening to this, you are. Your husband is not stuck. Husbands listen to this, your wives are not stuck. You guys can get through this. And then on the other side, guys, there wasn't a more high, strong, high speed tactical asshole than me when I was wearing a uniform with a huge pride, huge ego. I'm surprised I couldn't get through the door. I got television shows, don't you know? I mean all that stuff. And to understand that you can strip all that away and that it's possible is absolutely freaking amazing. And it's not me doing it, it's faith, it's hard work, it's therapy and it's a loving support system in a family wife and kids. That is what makes this whole thing possible. Support system in a family wife and kids that is what makes this whole thing possible.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that's an hour worth of us talking about or almost an hour for everybody us talking about us. Anything else you want to say before we get off this thing? If you had, if you could talk to a wife out there you know the, the Brady Bailey's of the world who was on last week, new cop gung ho, brady, I hope you're listening to this, my man, because you remind me so much of me. You're more handsome than I was, but it reminds me of me when I was your age and your part in your career. And, stacey, if you could talk to Brady's wife right now, what would you tell her?
Speaker 2:I think we all have to not insulate too much and to push in a little bit, even when they say they're fine, even when they say it doesn't affect them, husband or the wife. If your spouse is working a job or working as a cop or whatever the career field is, and they're not willing to face their truth and you see something, say something, press in. Sometimes they don't see it. It could be by choice or it could just be blindness to it. So just press in, talk about it, communicate about it, do it with love and gentleness and kindness, but don't avoid it. Don't just say this is the way the job is, this is just how they are, we're just gonna tough through it. I can do it, I can support them. I thought I was doing the right thing by just supporting you and not pressing in, and I wish I would have. I wish I would have pushed harder.
Speaker 1:All right. So here's what we got right. We've talked about, uh, everything. We've talked about, um, me being an asshole, you working, walking on eggshells and it being a difficult life. If you had to go back and do this whole thing again, would you relive this? Would you marry me again if you knew now, if you knew then what you know now?
Speaker 2:I think you know the answer. I would absolutely marry you again. I truly believe that we are where we are for a reason. We talk about this all the time, about our pain has a purpose, and so I feel like, yeah, we went through a lot together. We raised kids together, we have gorgeous kids. We've been through a lot, but I feel like going through everything we have has given us empathy and compassion and things that help us be with people and support people in community that we wouldn't have if we didn't go through everything we went through, and I truly believe our journey is not done Like God is still working in us, growing us until heaven. So we're in it together forever and we're growing and changing and working and becoming better every day.
Speaker 1:You're an awesome person. Yeah, don't give up, guys. Absolutely don't give up, stacey. Didn't give up. I would have given up 100 times. I would have given up on myself. I almost did in 2012. And I'm glad I did not make that fatal decision. I am so glad you did not make that fatal decision.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you did not make that choice.
Speaker 1:So, ladies and gentlemen, that is the truth. The Dick's Wife Tells All the secrets of the struggles and the fight to survive From a 21-year veteran police officer's wife who lived hell through my entire career, the ups and downs, the rise and fall and rise again of Aaron. That should be the name of a book. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, thank you guys so much for sticking around. Thank you guys for listening to another show. If you like what you're listening to, be a part of the conversation, if you can relate to any of this, send me an email at murders2music at gmailcom. And that's murders, the number two music at gmailcom. Find me on Instagram. That's murders2music. That one's all spelled out, guys. I know I'm dumb, but murders2music on Instagram. Become a part of the conversations in your show. Send me your thoughts, feedback. Give me some five-star reviews, ladies, and that is a murders to music podcast.
