Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)
Come on a ride along with a Veteran Homicide Detective as the twists and turns of the job suddenly end his career and nearly his life; discover how something wonderful is born out of the Darkness. Embark on the journey from helping people on their worst days, to bringing life, excitement and smiles on their best days.
Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)
Cold Case Files: Unraveling the Chilling Case of Barbara Mae Tucker and Uncovering the Murder at Mount Hood Community College
What if decades of grief and uncertainty could be unraveled in a single twist of fate? On this episode of the Murders to Music Podcast, we unfold the chilling case of Barbara Mae Tucker, a vibrant college student whose life was brutally cut short on her Oregon campus in 1980. Through the lens of cutting-edge DNA technology and genealogical testing, we trace how investigators managed to piece together this haunting puzzle, leading to the arrest of Robert Plympton. We offer a firsthand account of the challenges faced in solving this 44-year-old cold case, highlighting the tireless pursuit of justice and the emotional impact on everyone involved.
Join us as we explore the emotional turmoil endured by Barbara's family, particularly through the eyes of her sister, Susan. We hear the heart-wrenching story of another survivor, Patrice Spangler, who narrowly escaped Plimpton’s grasp, providing a harrowing victim impact statement that underscores the urgency of justice. The trial unfolds as a gripping narrative, shedding light on the courtroom drama, the aggressive defense tactics, and the lack of remorse displayed by the accused. This is a story not just of a crime, but of the ripple effects that stretch across time and community.
The lasting impact of this case reaches far beyond the courtroom, touching on themes of hope, resilience, and the relentless quest for truth. We reflect on the broader implications of cold case investigations, the stress of media scrutiny, and the emotional toll on families left in limbo for decades. Through this intense episode, we invite listeners to consider the profound effects of such tragedies and the importance of closure, even after many years. Join us to understand the complex interplay of law enforcement, family dynamics, and the human spirit in the face of enduring mysteries.
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Welcome back to the Murderous Music Podcast. My name is Aaron, I'm your host and thank you so much for coming back for another week. Tonight's episode we're going to do a deep dive into a murder that occurred on a college campus. Imagine your daughter, your wife, your loved one walking 1,200 feet from her apartment to go to school, school to get an education, to become a productive member of society, when only in the shadows of the darkness was an absolute derelict that snatched your young loved one into the woods, beat her to death and raped her. This is a case where I'm not going to get into a lot of details about the gruesome nature of the investigation, but I am able to talk about this case now. This is the case that occurred in January of 1980. This is a cold case homicide where a conviction was made 44 years after the murder occurred. I'm going to give you a glimpse and an inside look to a cold case murder investigation. What are the obstacles we have to overcome? And not only that. You get to hear the outcome in the end. You get to hear about the entire investigation, from the moment that it was occurring because we have those witnesses until the day that it was sentenced. You're going to hear all the details Again. I can now speak about this. This case has been adjudicated as of two weeks ago. The killer has been sentenced. This case got international attention, international news, people from around the world are following this investigation and I'm going to give you the inside scoop as to how this case was solved. Before we can talk about the details, I want to put an admonishment out there for the attorneys that might be listening. Anything that was said on the stand was factual and in line with the written reports as I knew those facts at the time of giving testimony, as I knew those facts at the time of giving testimony. You see, there's a couple of asshole attorneys out there that wouldn't mind taking my words and using some legal loophole to get their murderous client off. So I want to make sure that they know this podcast is for educational, entertainment and value. Tonight it's going to be educational, informative. This podcast is for educational, entertainment and value. Tonight it's going to be educational, informative and entertaining because you get to come along on a ride along with a homicide detective during a cold case, murder investigation, the things that are said here. I'm not looking at reports and this is the case as I know it In 1980, gresham, oregon, it was a small, sleepy town.
Speaker 1:It was the kind of town that reminded you of Mayberry On the outskirts of town, covered in strawberry fields. In fact, the police department patch has a bunch of strawberries on it. It's outlined and bordered in strawberries because that was the roots and the foundation of the city. It was a quiet town. It was a town people went to retire where everybody knew everybody. Everybody knew everybody else's business. A town where you could feel safe growing up. Yeah, kids had their parties and there was the typical stupid stuff of a small town, but it's not a place where you expected it to make history in 1980 and then in 2024. It was the type of place where, when a stone was thrown in the pond, the ripples reached everybody, they touched everyone, they affected everyone's lives and everybody felt the fallout from the things that occurred on January 15th of 1980.
Speaker 1:January 15th of 1980, it was a cold and stormy, snowy night. Classes at Mount Hood Community College had just resumed after the Christmas break. It was either the first day or a couple of days into classes. Either way, students were still trying to find their way around campus, identify who their teachers were, where their classrooms were and just generally get in to the swing of life. A young lady named Barbara Mae Tucker, born and raised in the Portland area, was living 1,200 feet from the college campus. She wanted a nice, close apartment where she could walk back and forth to school. She worked, she was part of the DECA club, business-minded Athlete Stood, six foot tall, beautiful young lady, just an absolute pride of joy to her family and her mother. So on January 15th of 1980, barbara and some friends had went out, had some fun during the day and it was time for Barbara to go off to college.
Speaker 1:She chose to walk to school that night even though it was dark and stormy and a little snowy. You see, there was some snow on the ground that had fallen a few days prior. It was still kind of sleeting, snowy, slushy, roads were icy. She chose to walk to school. So she took off with her purse and her school bag and her book bag. You could almost see the college campus from her driveway. It's only 1,200 feet.
Speaker 1:As she approached the main intersection she lived on Northwest 23rd, the main intersection. She lived on Northwest 23rd. There's a main road. Northwest 23rd is a east-west road. It's a side street. As she walked towards the college. There's a main road that runs north-south, that is 257th or Kane. She had to cross Cain and directly on the other side of Cain was the driveway and the entrance to her college. She was a mere 250 feet from her college campus when an unknown guy came out of the woods, a stranger in the night, grabbed her and drug her off into the woods. Barbara, or Barbie, is her friend's caller.
Speaker 1:Barbie fought back. She was athletic. She fought back. She fought back so hard she was able to break away from her killer and she ran out of the woods down into the middle of the roadway in front of moving traffic on icy roads. She did that because she would rather risk getting hit by a car than go back into the woods to face whatever was waiting for her. That car that slammed on its brakes to avoid from hitting Barbie saw Barbie waving her arms, yelling. That car thought that it was just a teenage prank. This man came out of the woods, grabbed Barbie and drug her back off into the woods, up the snowy hill, into a small patch of trees.
Speaker 1:Barbie continued fighting for her life and broke away a second time, a second time running out into traffic in front of a moving car hoping to get hit. Versus what was waiting for her, the second car saw her waving one arm, because now she has an injured arm that she's guarding. One arm is being waved, asking, begging, pleading for her life and for help. The car slows down and drives on. Another witness sees a guy come out of the woods, put his arm around Barbie and guide her back up into the woods.
Speaker 1:You see, the woods lie between 257th and Kane and the parking lot for the school. Now a person in the parking lot heard screams coming from the woods. So they look back to their left. They can see some motion and commotion. They ignore it. They go on to class. Another person is walking through the parking lot and sees somebody in the woods stalking them, following them, a dark shadow. This person hurriedly runs off to class but doesn't report this. Cell phones weren't a thing. Pay phones were a long ways away. We're in a remote part of town, remember, we're on the outskirts of town. There's not a lot of businesses around. Everybody chalked it up that somebody else was going to do something, or this was a teenage prank. Little did they know that while they were going off to class and finishing their drives home, barbie was getting beaten to death and raped on the campus of Mount Hood Community College.
Speaker 1:January 16th of 1980, at about 8.30 in the morning, students arrive at school to find Barbie's body lying feet off of the improved portion of the parking lot. She's lying face down in bark dust, snow around her, the debris field around her, dirt kicked up, snow kicked up, her books thrown about, her, belongings scattered from the fight that she was involved in, only to lose to the hands of her killer. Her pants were pulled down, her legs were in a figure four as she's face down. Her bra was pulled up, exposing her chest. One of the witnesses, so shocked by what they were seeing, went and got a small towel and covered up Barbie's butt with the towel to protect her modesty of her deceased body. They called the police. Protect her modesty of her deceased body. They called the police.
Speaker 1:When the police arrived, they summoned the detective unit and a murder investigation began. They were able to figure out who the victim was pretty easily. They contacted the family, learned all they could about the victim. Who were her friends, boyfriends, girlfriends. Who were her friends, boyfriends, girlfriends. What was she involved in? Basketball, deca, business management, all of the things that made this person the person she was. They dug into, exhausting all of those leads, not finding anybody to hold responsible, excluding everybody that the community wanted to include 1980, you have to understand that DNA was not a known source of identification for criminal investigations. However, during the autopsy they found what looked like seminal fluid on and inside of Barbie. They swabbed it, they preserved it and that went off into evidence.
Speaker 1:They continued this investigation for years. They cast a very wide net. They looked at all the transients in the area. They looked at sex offenders. They looked at friends of friends of friends. They identified cars that were idling in a church parking lot nearby and who owned that car at the time of this murder. Did they see anything? Were they involved? They looked into peeping Toms. They looked into prowlers, anything where they involved. They looked into peeping toms. They looked into prowlers. They cast a net so far.
Speaker 1:There was a transient brought to Gresham from Klamath Falls, oregon, because he used to be a transient. On the street of Gresham there was a tip line with hundreds and hundreds of telephone tips called in by citizens, each one investigated thoroughly. There were media and news releases put out about this. This is during the time when they still had newspapers and film crews that would go out. All of this yielded zero results. The case ultimately grew cold. Detectives retired Detectives left, administration changed at the police department, but nobody who was ever involved in this case forgot about it. The family in shock and awe that the case couldn't be solved. Ultimately, barbie's mom died and was not able to see her daughter's killer brought to justice.
Speaker 1:The investigators took this case home with them. As an investigator, rarely do you take cases home with you. At least that was my experience. I've spoken to a lot of investigators who investigated this murder and they all remember it like the day it occurred. This is a case that haunted them. Remember, this is Gresham. It's a farming community, it's a small town. The ripple effects of this rock being thrown in the pond has great devastation and impact on those that it affected. Great devastation and impact on those that it affected. It wasn't a town where murders occur every day. It wasn't a town like today, where Gresham is a violent city. It's a metropolitan city. It's not a city in 1980 like today, where the murders just run together and, honestly, you forget the details of the investigations because you work so many of them, you become numb and tone deaf to the word murder and the idea that somebody is getting brutally killed in the streets. It wasn't that way in 1980. 1980, it was a farming community, it was Mayberry, and there was murder in the streets.
Speaker 1:So as this case continued to grow cold at the police department, I went through four different sets of detectives. As one detective retires, it's holding the case, it gets passed on to the next and the next and ultimately that's how I got the case. Each set of detectives would start an investigation, eliminate a few people and then the case would just continue to grow cold. Nobody ever took the bull by the horns and really worked this investigation super, super hard, and it's not their fault. There were other cases going on. They're busy. This is not in lieu of other cases. This is an addition to other cases and we were limited with the investigative resources.
Speaker 1:It wasn't until the mid-90s where DNA became a law enforcement criminal investigative tool and at that time they took that semen sample, sent it off to the lab and were able to get a male DNA profile. With that the detectives worked relentlessly to eliminate the suspects. Remember I said this was a very large suspect pool, large suspect pool. The word suspect back in 1980 simply meant a person who could commit the crime, and in this case that would be any male who was in the city of Gresham. So that's the net that was cast. Now today's suspect, that is an earned title. That is a title that says this person is more likely than not the person responsible for this crime. So today we have few suspects for cases. Back in the day they had a very large suspect pool. If you had a penis in the city of Gresham then you could be one responsible for this.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, the case was handed to me in January of 2015. I got the case on or about January 1st of 2015. It sat on my shelf, never opened. It didn't think about it. I was busy working other cases On January 16th of 2015, you've probably heard that January 16th date before. Coincidentally, that is the day that I picked this case up to review it, to try to put my arms around this 800-pound gorilla that's sitting in front of me when I gathered the information for this.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at 16 three-inch or four-inch three-ring binders, each one filled with hundreds of pages of investigative work pages of investigative work. Each one contains duplicative reports, missing reports, bits and pieces because each set of investigators built their own set of murder books. Murder book is a set of is a Bible for the murder. It's got all the information and reports in it and I had four sets of these. I had interviews. I had hypnotic reports where they were hypnotizing people to try to determine what they were recalling from their subconscious, what witnesses were, transient interviews from people from Klamath Falls just all kinds of stuff that were jumbled and mixed together. There were so many thousands of pages of documents and report that it was way too much to eat. It was like eating an elephant, one bite at a time but you couldn't even process what was in front of you because there was so much data and material and it was so convoluted.
Speaker 1:But I was able to read the initial findings in that report and it said that on January 16th of 1980, which was 35 years to the day that I'm looking at this for the first time, at about 8.30 in the morning, it was 8.20 in the morning when I was looking at this report. 35 years and 10 minutes is what separated the initial call from when I picked up this report and started to investigate it. I read the report, I got the gist of it. I read through the books and binders and realized there was just too much convoluted material for me to be able to process and work my current caseload, which is the same reason why this case has went cold and remained cold over the years. So I started trying to identify the suspect list and just pick up where my fellow detectives left off, eliminated a dozen or 20 different people based on DNA, collected DNA from people around the nation. Knock on their door. You are identified as this back in the day. Can I have your DNA? Yes, I get it. I sent it off to the lab. It's not them. It's just as important to exclude people as it is to include people.
Speaker 1:Time passes. We partner within the next year or so. We partner with Parabon Labs. Parabon Labs is able to take the DNA sample and make a phenotype. A phenotype is a picture profile of what the suspect looks like hair color, eye color, freckles, depth of skin tone, all of the above. We got that. We took a look at the picture and we compared that to different people throughout the case file known suspects, known associates we struck out there was one guy who similarly looked like him, so we went and investigated him. Turns out he's in law enforcement currently. We got his DNA excluded him. He's not involved. So we continue to move on.
Speaker 1:Within a year or so, we partner with Parabon Labs to send this DNA sample off for ancestry DNA genealogical testing, meaning that if you were to swipe your gums and send it off to find out who your ancestors are, that all goes into a database and we're able to take our suspect DNA, compare it to that database and see if we can find distant relatives. So it's similar to building a family tree upside down. Instead of you going looking for where your branches are, we go out and look for the branches and try to draw it back to one person, that one person being our unknown suspect. So that's exactly what we did. We found that there were no DNA profiles out there In the world of cheek swabs and ancestry DNA that got us any closer To who our suspect was. So we asked for annual reviews on that. Can you just continue checking periodically for us? We're continuing to strike out. Yet I'm continuing to go around and collect dna samples from various people around the nation and continuing to eliminate people, hoping that one of them strikes positive so we can close this case. I met with the family, told the family who I was, that I was going to solve their case, and they really appreciated my words. But it's been 35 years and nobody's solved it yet. So thanks for trying, almost giving up, but still having that glimmer of hope. But still having that glimmer of hope, continued to periodically check the DNA Ancestry, dna database. No real luck Comes. Covid, covid.
Speaker 1:I'm able to take these 16 books home with me. I go through them page by page, I catalog them, I get all the reports. I am able to compile a complete set of reports, a complete set of interviews, everything. I catalog it, I organize it, I alphabetize it, I put it all together in a way that I can process it and work this case, which really helped in the end when it comes to prosecution, because I was able to present that to the DAs and they were able to quickly find the information they needed to prosecute this case. Present that to the DAs and they were able to quickly find the information they needed to prosecute this case. Went through boxes of reports where people just in 1980, threw pages and shit into boxes and just stuck them and hid them in our evidence locker. I was able to take those out, go through those, make sense of all of that In 2021, I got a phone call from Parabon Labs Parabon Labs genealogist Cece Moore, who is an amazing woman.
Speaker 1:She called and said Aaron, now, I typically wouldn't research this connection, aaron, but we got a couple of matches and they're still a long ways off from your suspect, but they're leased in the family. Can I work these? Are you guys willing to pay for them? And I'm like, absolutely so. Within 24 hours she called me back and she's excited. She said Aaron, I haven't stopped working all night and I'm able to identify.
Speaker 1:Your suspect is in the Plimpton is the last name family tree and there's two sides of that family. They don't know each other. They're separated through a divorce proceedings and stuff. However, one of them lives in Florida. His name is such and such. The other one lives in Troutdale, oregon. His name is Robert Plimpton. She said I believe your killer is one of these two, but you need to do the investigation from here. She said I'm going to continue working on this and we'll confirm next week the Plimpton name, but I wanted to give you somewhere to start.
Speaker 1:So me, I'm excited and I was at home that day. I was in my shop cleaning. I remember I called and I told him hey, I think we've got a lead. And I shortly thereafter went into the drive-by. I figured out where Robert Plimpton lived and I went into the drive-by of his house. Lived in a nice house in a nice neighborhood in Troutdale. It's about a mile and a quarter from Mount Hood Community College. It's right around the corner, nice house, nice yard, manicured.
Speaker 1:I did some background on him and he is a fishing guide on the Sandy River. He's a retired logger. His wife works for the records department of a local police department. She's been there 25 plus years, got a kid in high school who is a champion wrestler. He's got like the typical, you know husband, wife, kid, one and a half dogs kind of a family. So when you look at it from that perspective, man, is this the guy?
Speaker 1:Then I look at a criminal history. The criminal history shows me that between about 1982 and 1995 he's got a lot of assholery going on. He has been involved in kidnappings, rapes, assaults, violent, tumultuous behavior, just a general nuisance during those years Alcohol, numerous DUIs, some convictions for kidnapping and other things, and prostitution, rape on prostitutes, all kinds of stuff. And I'm like man, let me look into the guy in Florida, florida, squeaky clean. He owns a yacht club. He rents yachts to very rich people. I'm like, well, let's start at the one at home.
Speaker 1:So start doing some more research, doing some valence on him. I find that he is a I don't know 5'7", 5'8" something, 5'9", stocky, white male, red hair, hazel eyes, light complexion, light freckles. Then I remembered the phenotype. Phenotype described our suspect as a white male, red hair, hazel eyes, light complexion, light freckles. Hmm, we might be onto something. So I start following him for surveillance. I start asking for help from my police department. I get told no, because they don't have the resources and this is a cold case. They're not going to put energy on a cold case, but they're going to put it on a hot one because we've got lots of those. I fight the fight that this case is now white, hot because we have these leads and this guy matches my suspect profile. They don't care.
Speaker 1:I start watching Plimpton by myself. I do surveillance, I follow him around. I'm waiting for him to spit, chew a fingernail, smoke a cigarette, anything, nothing. He works out at a gym. I follow him to the gym. I stand along a fence pretending to be on a cell phone call while he runs past me 15 times hoping he'll get out of breath and spit something out. He spits. I can't find it. This is becoming frustrating. I keep fighting and asking for help. Finally I get some help and they tell me that I can have some people to do a surveillance operation.
Speaker 1:So early in the morning we went out and we started doing surveillance at his house, at Plimpton's house. Plimpton got on a bicycle and he went for a ride and it was in May. It was in May, early May, june, something like that. That morning was cold, it was about 31 degrees, 32 degrees outside. He's on his bike riding. He rides for a couple of miles.
Speaker 1:There's about five of us on the surveillance. We're following him on foot. We're following him in cars. We're trying not to get noticed. We have to keep very, very tight on him, meaning we can't put a lot of distance between us and him because, remember, we're looking for something very small. We're looking for him to spit gum, spit saliva, something, spit a sunflower seed, I don't care what he spits Some way maybe fall and crack his head open and bleed all over the ground. Either way, we're looking for some way to get DNA from him.
Speaker 1:So we follow him all over this morning and shortly into the surveillance I see him put his right hand into his front right hoodie pocket and put it up to his mouth. And then it appeared that he's chewing gum. So he continues to write. I notify the team that he's put gum in his mouth. He's writing all around. We're all talking on the radios and as he comes around along the Sandy River on the old historic Columbia River Highway, he pulls over just north of the Stark Street Bridge and he's overlooking the water. I'm about 100 yards away from him, parked along the shoulder of the road. I'm in plain sight of him. I'm watching through binoculars and I'm talking on the radio and I hear somebody say something about spitting. I asked for a clarification. They said it looked like he spit something on the ground. About that time Plimpton rode away. He rode across the Stark Street Bridge and out of sight. Surveillance continued.
Speaker 1:I met with another detective where he was standing and on the ground we found a piece of bubble gum chewing gum. That chewing gum, when I picked it up, was warm. It was wet to the touch. It smelled like spearmint. When I picked it up, it was warm. It was wet to the touch. It smelled like spearmint. I know that Plimpton was the only person standing there that spit something out of their mouth. I asked the surveillance team if he was still chewing gum. They told me that he was not. I felt like we had Plimpton's gum. Remember, it's 31 degrees outside and this gum is warm to the touch. It wouldn't take long for the ambient temperature to chill that gum off, but this gum was still warm and wet.
Speaker 1:We collected the gum, finished the surveillance, took the gum back to the police department, ultimately submitting it to the crime lab for analysis. It didn't take long for the crime lab to come back and say that the gum DNA matched the DNA found inside of our victim from 1980. We knew who our killer was. So from that point in the investigation we had to put the pieces together to continue surveillance and plan an arrest.
Speaker 1:Now this is not just somebody you want to go knock on his door and ask him what he's been up to and was he involved in a murder suspect who's been hiding for 40 years, has secrets that nobody else knows, has now established a life with his wife working in law enforcement. He is a prominent member of the community whose son is a champion wrestler. He works out of the local gym. He's friends to many on the sandy river. He's also an asshole to many on the sandy river, but that's a different story. So we just don't go knock his door. It's not a situation where we want to take a SWAT team and blow up his house. That's only on tv. The best way to go about doing this and the most tactical approach is to conduct surveillance, take him off on a traffic stop, arrest him maybe not tell him what it's for and bring him back to the police department where I would be waiting to interview him. So that's exactly what happened. In June.
Speaker 1:We followed Robert Plimpton all over the place and on the day of the arrest we followed him from his house. Now he left his house and he went westbound on Stark Street. When he got to Kane or 257th Avenue, that is the intersection where Mount Hood Community College is. If you're sitting at that intersection facing west, mount Hood Community College is to your left. To the left is where Barbara Tucker's body was found. At that point he's about 300 yards away from where her body was found.
Speaker 1:As he pulls up to that intersection, he signals for a left-hand turn. He makes his left-hand turn, patrol units are behind him. Now these are detectives that are driving patrol cars, because they know what to say and how to act. They make the turn on the lights and he pulls over to the right-hand side of the road. Didn't try to run, didn and how to act. They make the turn on the lights and he pulls over to the right hand side of the road. Didn't try to run, didn't try to flee.
Speaker 1:What's interesting is he pulled over about 150 feet from where he kidnapped Barbara Tucker off of the street 40 years earlier. The detectives made contact with him, told him he had a warrant for his arrest. They arrested him and they brought him back to the police department. And that's where I got to meet Robert Plimpton for the first time officially. So I get Robert Plimpton in the interview room. Issue him his Miranda rights he never asked me why he's there. Issue him his Miranda warning. He acknowledges agrees to talk to me.
Speaker 1:So I start asking him about growing up, where he grew up, where he lived, what he did growing up, what his line of work was, is he married? Do you have any kids? All the stuff I already knew answers to, still not asking me why he's in custody. He tells me that through Alcoholics Anonymous, aa, he has a partner that he's confided everything in and he's made all of his rights, all of his wrongs, right and there's nothing outstanding and he doesn't know why he's there. But he never asks me why he's there.
Speaker 1:So then I asked him when he lost his virginity. And he told me he lost his virginity and I don't have the report in front of me, but it was 14 ish, 15, something like that Asked him where he lived at the time. He had to really think about that. And then he's like I live down by the Sandy river, you know about half a mile from where I live now. Well, and then he's like I live down by the Sandy River, you know about half a mile from where I live now. Well, that's about a mile and a half from where this murder occurred. Asked him how he got around back, then he says that he walked everywhere. He was, you know, 15, 16 years old. Said that he was quite a partier, drinker, used drugs. And he says he has a girlfriend. It's the same lady he's married to now. He's been with her forever. He had sex with other people. Well, yeah, I have.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to throw a name out there for you. Tell me if you, if this person was ever somebody you had a relationship with okay, barbara Tucker. Nope, don't know her, ever met her. If this person was ever somebody you had a relationship with, okay, barbara Tucker, nope, don't know her. Ever met her? Nope, let me show you a picture.
Speaker 1:So I show him a picture of Barbara Tucker Nope, don't know her. I'm like, well, in 1980, she would have been 19. You would have been 16. Um, is it somebody that you ever had sex with? Nope, ever had a relationship with Nope. Now you can tell me, even if you're dating your wife at the time, I don't care. Did you ever have a relationship? Nope, never met her. Never had a relationship with her, never had sex with her. Would you know it if you did? Oh, I would like to think so. Yeah, of course, if never had sex with her. Date her? No, aaron, I've never met her. Okay, cool. What is she saying? I did? Well, she's not saying much of anything right now. You see, she was found murdered on the campus of Mount Hood Community College and your DNA was inside of her vagina of Mount Hood Community College and your DNA was inside of her vagina and I guess that's what we need to discuss.
Speaker 1:Robert, and at that point he invoked. He said that he didn't want to talk to me anymore. We worked through that. I stopped asking him questions. He asked if he could see his wife. We allowed his wife to talk to him. During the conversation with his wife, he explained to her what we were accusing him of. She never questioned if he did it. She didn't seem shocked at all. Pretty flat effect. They were able to call his son. Robert told his son that his son is the man of the house and that he'd probably be going to jail. I can't remember exactly what he said, but he's probably going to jail for the rest of his life and his son is now the man of the house. We took him off to jail and a couple years passed before we bring this to trial. We actually brought this to trial in March of 2024. March of 2024, this goes to trial.
Speaker 1:This trial lasts about a 10-day trial days. It lasted out over about six weeks because there were some breaks in there. Robert Plimpton hired a very high paid defense attorney. I believe there were some liens or mortgages taken out or something. The defense attorney which I've got other episodes about is a raging asshole and I just don't like him and I don't think he likes me. I just don't like him and I don't think he likes me. He's got his son that works with him. His son is, I would say, incompetent at best. It almost looks like one of those situations where it's a bring your child to work day. Dad has to puppet master and tell his son what to do and what to say. The control is unbelievable. They're both flaming assholes. So either way, this goes to trial and at the end of the trial he's found guilty.
Speaker 1:During the trial process his suspect's family was there. Robert Primpton's family was in the courtroom. They slowly started to dwindle away. There wasn't quite as many at the last day of trial as there was at the first day. Apparently they couldn't hold out 10 days. However, the victim's family, friends and supporters as witnesses were paraded through and came in and told their stories. The victim's family was there through the whole thing. They got to hear every gruesome detail of this murder, at times having to excuse themselves because of the graphic nature of the events that occurred and the brutality that their loved one faced.
Speaker 1:Come sentencing. Robert Plimpton was sentenced for the murder of Barbara May Tucker. He was sentenced to life in prison with a minimum mandatory service of 40 years. At the time of sentencing, robert Plimpton was 61 years old and will likely never get out of jail. The aftermath of this is the impact that it left behind on the friends and the family and the community in Gresham. It's the impact that it had on others along the way.
Speaker 1:You know, during closing arguments there was a lot of statements about we can't believe this is his only victim, can't believe that he hasn't done this. The brutality of this and for him to sit here absolutely cold and callous, with no remorse, no apology, no communication to the family, just calculated. Can't believe that he's this hard and this is his only murder. I don't know if it's his only murder or not. I honestly don't. But I agree with the family that it seems awfully strange.
Speaker 1:If it was During the investigation and during the time where we started narrowing down on the suspect, I had to reach out and communicate with the witnesses from 1980, the people that saw her running out into the street, the people that heard the scream, all those folks. They haven't been contacted by law enforcement in 40 years and all of a sudden, somebody's contacted them. I couldn't tell them hey, we're getting close. But I had to say are you still alive? Where do you live? What do you remember? And I want to let you know. We're working this case. Who knows what will happen.
Speaker 1:Another person that I met for the first time was the night of the arrest. The night of the arrest, after we had him booked into jail, the family had no idea this conclusion was coming. I left them in the dark. I couldn't tell them, but the night of the arrest, at 9 pm, I went and knocked on their door in a remote part Not remote, it's just a long ways from my police department. They're in the city. You see, this is the home of Susan and Robert Pater. Susan is Barbie's sister. I met her originally in 2015, when I took on the case and I told her I was going to solve it. And on this night, in June of 2021, I was there to tell her that I solved the murder and that's where I met Robert Pater. Tell her that I solved the murder and that's where I met Robert Pater. Robert Pater is a very intellectual, very intelligent man, and he spoke via recording at the sentencing, and here are his words Judge Skye.
Speaker 2:My name is Robert Pater and I apologize for not being able to be there in person. I am the brother-in-law post-mortem of Barbara May Tucker, called Barbie by her family. As far as I know, I met her next oldest sister, susan, who's here in the courtroom, in the fall of 1982, two and a half years after Barbie's death. But I feel as if I do know Barbie because her presence has been prominently woven into our lives over the past 42 years since I met Susan, her pictures have been throughout our home. They've been ongoing stories I've heard over and again. I've read journals from her now-deceased mother, I've talked to so many people who knew her and we, susan, have been through numerous media interviews over the year about Barbie's vicious murder. That brought up details, thoughts and feelings time and again that I've watched or sat in on and from the years of the story's discussions and other evidence I witnessed the devastating impact on the Tucker family, how the serial killer sadistic-style impact had on the family.
Speaker 2:Seemingly random, innocent, teenage, 19-year-old young woman has cascaded down through the years, both in her family and concentrically throughout and around the Gresham Portland community area.
Speaker 2:Every person is special, as I'm sure their families will attest. Every victim is special and everybody, I'm sure, feels the loss. Barbie was definitely a special person, to the point that which astounds me that there's one person who I believe is probably in the courtroom right now, who only knew Barbie as a coworker for three months, just pretty much just prior to her murder, and was so strongly touched by meeting her that here, over four decades later, this person attended every single moment of every one of the 10 days of the rape, kidnapping, murder, trial, and this woman often drove in, sometimes with her husband from Lincoln City, to attend. Then there's Barbie's lifelong friend, maria Adrian, who is now a certified sleep technician and unfortunately also couldn't be here in person, who I asked to share her reactions. Maria was considered herself and other people considered Maria that I've spoken with as Barbie's best friend growing up. So I'm going to cut into that and I'll come back in a few seconds.
Speaker 4:After I found out Barb had died and how she had died, I spent hours and hours trying to figure out why she was such a good person. Everybody loved her, everybody looked out for her. She looked out for everybody else, and how could something like this happen? So we were always looking over our shoulders, wondering what was going on. We couldn't really be comfortable with any of it, and not knowing why this happened to her really made us be suspicious about anybody and everybody around.
Speaker 4:So as for this person that did this to Barb, he could have let her go. She got away from him. Just the fact that he was bold enough to go out in front of traffic where people could see him and bring her back, because he was not going to let her get away with getting away from him, makes me believe that if he had the chance, he'd do it again and again and again and not care. If this was your best friend, if it was your child who was beaten and chased down after they got away, how would you feel that that person deserved to spend the rest of their lives, when they've been running around free, having a good life all these years, knowing that your friend got away and he came after them and took them back and beat them some more until they died.
Speaker 2:We've also heard from many other people attesting to the kind of kind, caring, supportive person and make-it-happen leader that Barbie was. It's clear to me that, at the very least, the perpetrator mercilessly hunted Barbie down at least twice and committed a brutal overkill. That in the words of the medical examiner. Further, according to Marla Kaplan, the DNA technical leader of the Oregon State Crime Lab, that there is a 650 quadrillion to one scientifically statistical likelihood the perpetrator could be no one other than the convicted killer. I have taken statistics courses. I can't say the word killer. I have taken statistics courses, can't say the word, but I've taken statistics courses and there was no such thing as 100% certainty. But I did do this. I looked up at Google and I asked Google to divide this 160 quadrillion to the number of people that Google estimates have ever cumulatively lived on the earth. 17 billion is what Google said and that was five and a half million was the answer. In other words, you could take all the population my understanding of everyone, not only who's lived on the earth, who has ever lived on the earth five and a half million times of those people, and that it would still be, statistically, this person sitting before you in the courtroom as the killer there could be. It's astounding. There could be even more certainty than that. Despite this, from my perception of the trial, the subsequently convicted killer showed zero contrition, zero normal human reactions, in my opinion, to the horrific pictures and descriptions that were shown on the big screen that perhaps I'm on right now.
Speaker 2:Over a period of 10 days, it's critical that this person be locked away for as long as allowed by the criminal justice system to protect society from this ultra-violent, remorseless perpetrator. The severity of the crime, in my opinion, as a non-lawyer but as a community member, warrants a comparably firm response from the community as a means-lawyer, but as a community member, warrants a comparably firm response from the community as a means of preventative societal self-defense as well. I suggest that delivering the strongest possible sentence is essential to simultaneously send an unambiguous message and statement to three groups. One potential criminals they can never rest Should they commit a crime that they think they've gotten away with just because time has lapsed. That they think, oh, I'm safe, I got away with some big deal. That all such virulently violent crimes are taken seriously and they're never forgiven, no matter how long it's been and how long they've again, they have to think they've gotten away with it.
Speaker 2:The gap between this horrific crime, when it was committed, and the sentencing should not warrant a metaphorical slap on the wrist. Just the opposite this person has been allowed to live his life for over four decades without the fear, perhaps, of being caught without repercussions, lived his life. Two. It would also send a message to law enforcement and criminal justice professionals. This is an era where, regrettably, many people often denigrate police and other law enforcement officers and professionals. It's important that we support, in my mind, and reinforce these guardians' incredibly dedicated work, as well as justifying their allocating resources to a frigid case of over four-plus decades. My understanding from the aggression police is that when cold cases are allocated to detectives, they take those on not in lieu of one of their caseloads of the current cases, like homicides, but on top of that and still work. That, and perhaps number three, the third group is even a stronger message to statement to our community as well as to the world, that we in Multnomah County and the state of Oregon value their safety, their lives and their faith in law enforcement, not only by preventing what we can, but also by quarantining away known extreme perpetrators, in my mind, than it is of social protection from extreme, unmitigated, uncaring, unconcerned, unconscionable violence. My understanding is, again as a non-lawyer, is that the 1980 guidelines under which the sex crime murder will be sentenced, is significantly more lenient than current sentencing guidelines. I assume that these guidelines have become more stringent due to a perception for a need of greater social protection. If my assumption is accurate, I believe it's even more critical that your Honor strongly consider giving the most severe sentence allowable under the 1980 guidelines, legally, of course, for all of the above reasons and to be more closely in accord with the current crime safety standards and society's expectations.
Speaker 2:This case has literally spurred significant global attention and interest. In fact, in the immediate intermath of the conviction, I googled that there were 17,000 over that hits in Google on the trial in this courtroom. It was picked up worldwide India, the UK, singapore, several European, asian, south American countries, australia, canada on every major US news outlet Fox, abc, cbs, cnn, nbc, people Magazine, new York Times and numerous other media and agencies. Maybe for many, many reasons. It would be logical, I believe, likely that this sentencing will also receive a significant amount of attention, not only locally but globally.
Speaker 2:I suspect the world will be watching the degree to which we in Multnomah County and the state of Oregon. Protect our innocence from the monstrous predators who hunt down the totally random victims to perpetuate unspeakable, beyond brutal, inhumane offenses. My wife and I celebrated 40th wedding anniversary in August and she's a wonderful person and she wakes up crying and she told me there isn't a day that goes by that she doesn't think about Barbie. This may be an old case, but it's not old in the hearts of the family and friends and the community. I urge you to give the longest possible sentence possible. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Now I'd like to bring Robert on and speak to him about this case. So I want to welcome Robert and Susan to the podcast. You know, I think it's really, really special that we have family members who are willing to come forward and tell their perspective. You've heard about Barbie, you've heard about Robert Plimpton, you've heard about Stephen and Jacob Howes. You've heard about this from January 15th of 1980 through the sentencing. And now I just want to get the family perspective. It's not very often that we have people come in willing to talk and I want to take this opportunity. So, robert and Susan, thank you guys so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3:Yes, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. So I just want to know, you know, and, robert, we've had an opportunity to listen to your impact statement, so we have an idea how it has impacted on a, you know, a big level, impacted the family and others and friends and so on and so forth. But, Susan, I want to talk to you real quick. What was it like living with the unknown for so many years? Unknown who the killer was and would they ever be caught? What was that like for you personally?
Speaker 3:It was frustrating, you know, and also what it did with my parents and the sadness that it brought. Just hoping that one day he would be found and, you know, justice would be served is, you know, just didn't seem like it was ever going to happen, I have to say, went so long.
Speaker 1:What kind of impact did it have on the family?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Wow big, especially my parents. They were they. I remember my mom calling me when I was at, when I was working, and told me what happened and I couldn't believe it. And somebody just took me back to my parents' house just so we could, you know, I could be with them. It's not something you expect, you know right? I mean, barbie was living her life and doing what she needed to do and enjoyed what she did. You know, I never thought anything this horrible would happen, just it's yeah how old were you at the time?
Speaker 2:oh, gosh, oh 20 uh Going to be 22.
Speaker 3:Okay, right around 22. 21, 22.
Speaker 1:Okay, so a couple years older and then over the years and I know that sometimes families get torn apart or find strain or stress in really strange things right Somebody dies in the family and all of a sudden, you know, people disown each other. Was there ever any of that kind of that in fighting with the family? And all of a sudden, you know people disown each other. Was there ever any of the kind of that in fighting with the family over this death? Did it cause those levels of stress?
Speaker 3:Not not that I recall that there was any um, I mean, there was a thought of it. It was a boyfriend that she was dating. You know that kind of thing, you know, cause my, my parents, my dad, was pretty quiet. My mom was like had to be somebody and she was. You know that kind of thing, you know, because my, my parents, my dad, was pretty quiet. My mom was like had to be somebody and she was, you know, making it this boyfriend of hers. But it wasn't him, it it. It was like. It was like you don't know what to say and you don't know what to do. It's just a horrible thing that happened. And where do you go from there? I mean, there's she's. We're never going to get her back. You know it was um, did you know?
Speaker 2:not too long. I think it was actually before the sentencing, but after the trial, we can't. Susan came across a Barbie's baby book that some parents keep for their child and evidently Susan's mother had written it over the years. She had entries that were like almost immediate after the murder and then three years later and five years later, and she would do this on every fifth or tenth year of the anniversary of barbie's death and it was just heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking how ripped she was. When I met susan, I saw broken family and, um, they weren't pulling at each other, um, but the parents especially were destroyed. The mother was very loving and it just didn't seem to know what to do and how to handle themselves. And it was out of my personal experience. I'd never seen anything like that before because I never knew anybody who had gone through something like that horrendous trauma.
Speaker 1:Susan, how old was your mom or when did your mom die? How long after Barbie was murdered did your mom die? How long after barbie was murdered did your mom die?
Speaker 2:she died in 90. In was it june of 95 after brian was born.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 95, 95, yeah, and I don't recall he was, but that's when she passed so 15, so about so about 15 years, so about 15 years after Okay, you mentioned this a second ago.
Speaker 3:Did you ever think this case would be solved? I didn't, because so many years had gone by, I didn't think it was going to happen. But there was a part of me inside that I felt like it had to happen, part of me inside that had that, I felt like it had to happen. That, you know, we need to find what happened with how this, all this, came about and how we lost her. Um, but seriously, we we didn't think it would.
Speaker 2:Really, you know, nobody knew who it was or to go after the local media would come by on memorial anniversaries of Bobbitt's murder I'm making this up like every five years or something like that and come into our house and interview Susan every year and it just surfaced. It was like picking at scabs and old wounds that started to maybe heal. And I remember Susan and I discussing and I remember telling her that probably after all these years we'll never know when the guy is probably dead, whoever did it, and I remember thinking it would be probably better that he was never caught than he was caught and somehow he would get off on a technicality. That would be far, far worse For that to happen, to know somebody did this and he's out there and just laughed his way out of it. So it was pretty stressful.
Speaker 2:It was quite a while, as you well know that after you arrested him that it actually came to trial. It was like four years or something like that, I'm guessing. Yeah, about three years, yeah, three years. And I remember hoping he would plead out so we wouldn't get to trial and Susan and the rest of the family wouldn't have to go through the trauma of opening everything up, which it was traumatic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned a second ago that there was a lot of media that came through. How many interviews prior to us solving the case? Uh, how many interviews do you think you did regarding this?
Speaker 3:well, one was out on the deck and that was three, maybe three different people no, no, that was after the. Oh, that was after that yeah, um yeah, I mean some would, some would come by, but it wasn, but it wasn't like a whole bunch of people, it was like we did have people coming in, I would say there was three, I recall several in our living room, and so there was also interviews that were on the phone, where it wasn't in person.
Speaker 2:So it was between three, maybe perhaps even as many as five different interviews spread out over the years. So again, it almost seemed like it was never a protracted period where the healing could be. We could forget about it Not that you ever forget about something like that.
Speaker 1:Are you guys aware that there was a book written about this murder?
Speaker 3:Yes, I think there was a woman that was writing it. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:That is correct.
Speaker 3:yes, I remember hearing about it, yeah, but I haven't yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know where it got done or anything. It got done, it's published, and I didn't know about it until after a sentencing. Uh, somebody in my circle said hey, you know, I just read a book about this murder, is it, you know, the same one you're talking about in this? The author is now deceased and this book was published a decade ago. Um, so there's a book written about it. I'll find information and forward it to you guys. How many Thank you? Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:What were you going to say Robert CeCe Moore? Cece Moore had, on a phone call to Susan, had indicated that she was thinking that this particular case, of all the cases, which were, oh I believe, over 100 at that point, that she had worked on supposed purportedly cold cases, that this particular case touched her more than anyone else, any other one, and that she was considering writing a book about this. So we haven't had contact with her since then. So we haven't had contact with her since then.
Speaker 1:And for the listener's sake, cece Moore is the genetic genealogist that works for Parabon, that made the DNA connections. She's the one that worked all night long to find the Plimpton family tree and give us a left or a right route, and the right route being Florida. That panned out to nothing. Left route panned out to Robert Plimpton. How many detectives do you recall meeting with over the years and, from a family's point of view, did you see the police department continuing to work this case or did you feel it was forgotten with them as well?
Speaker 3:Oh good question. Well, oh good question. Um, I don't know that I can recall, I know I I don't, I can't recall if it was. It was brought up, you know, every year or anything like that. Um, I don't know, I just kind of don't have that yeah, fair enough. But I know when you, when you came in that night, that was that was opening up a whole new world of with you, you guys coming in, and so, um, yeah, I'm sorry, I can't.
Speaker 1:It's okay, no, it's okay do you remember meeting me back in about 2015 when I took the case on?
Speaker 3:Well, I know that you and your partner came to our door. No, that was before 2015.
Speaker 1:You went out to Greg, you came out to the police department.
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, I wasn't there yes that's right. I do remember that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, I do remember, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you mentioned yeah, alice was there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, speaking of the night that I knocked on your door. When my partner and I knocked on your door, uh, tell me about that night, what was that like for you? And then I'll tell you what that was like for me.
Speaker 3:Well, robert and I were sitting in the living room and we were going to, just, we were getting ready to go for a walk and suddenly somebody came to the door and you guys whooshed in. It was like what's going on? Let me add to that, if I can yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I sort of opened and here is this guy and this woman who I don't know and very, very amped up is the word I would use Both just really energized to energize people. I'm like who the heck are they? I got, frankly, a little defensive about it. Then I looked and I went, you know, and I said, excuse me, and you almost walked in and I was so excited. I didn't feel threatened, I just felt like who is this person? Just kind of like walking into her house? Oh, you were, he was so yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I looked down and I saw your badges on your, I think, on your belt, if I remember correctly. Yeah, at least he was. And I went, oh, and it was. I was perplexed. And you walked in and said, and, just really amped up, we walked into our living room and you started by saying I sat down and you said, let me see the fact about. Do you remember I told you I would not let this go at Summit and we did. You just made me rest, very emotional, I remember that, and it was like we're all just like flabbergasted. I was flabbergasted, I was taken aback after 40 years.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, I was. You're totally surprised but very thankful. I mean, yeah to have. Yeah, it was, it was. It was very emotional when you, when you guys came in and it was almost like I can't believe it.
Speaker 2:And you told us I think, if I remember correctly, you told us or you or Lindsay told us that you came directly from alnama county uh jail to go house because you were concerned that it would be picked up, the us would be picked up by media, and that we might see it if we had the tv on on the news and you wanted to get to us before that we hadn't just come across that on media that that would be just too shocking. Yeah, it was a kindness on your part to do that.
Speaker 3:That's what I remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we um, we arrived at your house at about the same time he was getting to jail. So patrol took him to jail. We left to go to your house and we timed that so we could arrive at the same time he was getting to jail. That way, if anything, if anything was leaked, we were at you guys first.
Speaker 1:So that excitement that you're talking about was pure emotion. It was probably and I'm not going to cry right now, but I'll try not to it was probably the most impactful moment in law enforcement. I have told a lot of people that we're going to solve their murder case and I can't think of any that I haven't solved, because that's a statement that I would make early on in the investigation to ensure some confidence in my victim's families and I don't get paid to lose. So I wasn't going to, and in your case I got. To be honest, I mean, when I took on the case it was an uphill battle and when you listen back to this podcast you'll understand the complexities that were there and that I was facing. But when I arrived at your door that night, I mean there was excitement because of what we just did. It had been a long day, but more. It was overwhelmed with emotion and I can honestly say in my entire career, out of all the murders that I've worked and major crimes cases, I've never had more emotion than I had when I showed up at your door and I probably didn't know how to. I couldn't handle it. I mean, I was crying the next day on the news. Um, you know, and I remember sitting there just crying with you guys in your living room and completely uh, it was unreal as to where we were. You know, and we're professional while we do it. But you've got to humanize that badge a little bit and you know, just all the stereotypical cop toughness goes out the window when you're delivering news after 40 years that you found the person responsible for the murder.
Speaker 1:Um, that was a pretty awesome night, uh, for all of us. I think it was pretty cool. It was. It was um, how's that? How was the trial process for you? And I know the trial process lasted, I don't know, seven, eight weeks, whatever it was, but 10 days of actual trial, I believe. Um, there was a lot of uh imagery. There was a lot of graphic imagery. There was a lot of graphic imagery. There was a lot of graphic testimony. There was the um poor behavior of the defense attorneys. How was that process for you? And then we'll talk about kind of when I testified.
Speaker 3:But first, how was that process for you and the family, you and the family, um, there, I mean, it was like, yes, you know the guy's been caught or you know that sort of thing. But it was, um, oh, it was just all kind of, it was just shocking, you know that this is really happening, kind of thing. And when you came in, it's like, really, you know, I almost couldn't believe that you caught him because it had been so long. So I was very grateful that you know that happened and that we could give. You know, you know my parents, you know, could know, and I mean she'll never be back, of course, but it's just it was good to know who finally did this to her. And we'll forever, you know, miss her. I think about her every day.
Speaker 2:There were 10 days trial. I'm sorry, Go ahead. No, go ahead, Robert. I mean cut you off. Did you want to follow up with her before I say anything?
Speaker 1:No, no, go ahead, you may answer my follow-up question.
Speaker 2:Okay, there were 10 days of the trial and I sat down next. I was next to Susan there. I was there for comfort, for the most part, as far as in support for Susan and as far as in support for Susan, and they were some of the most horrific. I mean horrific, as you mentioned graphic images and testimony from the medical examiner about what happened to Barbie, and I remember every time they showed pictures. You see these pictures it's like a horror film, except this is a real person, that was a family member that is unbelievably ugly and obscene, and I would look at a picture and I'd close my eyes and it's still seared in my memory. I wish I could erase it, but I can't undo it. And Susan kept her eyes open. I'd look at Susan. I said Susan, close your eyes. She says I have to see this and she made herself look at this as I'm holding her hand to see this. And she made herself look at this as I'm holding my hand. She's crying, she's weeping and we're holding hands.
Speaker 2:During this time, I found myself arrested at the trial. I found myself having three vacillating bouncing between three reactions during the trial, one of which was absolute horror, like I just described, just incredible horror. And then, at the same time, looking over and seeing from the side, from where we were sitting, as you know, how the courtroom is, laid out the side, and seeing the person who is Plimpton, seeing him and making no emotions. This whole time, 10 days, not one human emotion. I mean even somebody who had done something as a, as a youth, when he was 16 years old and now he's 60, he was 60 years old at that point. No reactions, no, nothing. It's just dude. It was like a walk in the park Another day. I assumed he was told by his defense counsel to not show him human emotions, but this went way beyond the pale of that. So I was horrified.
Speaker 2:The second thing I was was furious. I wanted to go over and rip the throat out of this guy probably not unlike other family members that happen in situations like this, but I wasn't sure how much I hated or was angry at Plimpton or at the defense attorney, who was, as you indicated. I also had an extremely strong negative reaction to the way he conducted himself with everybody, with the prosecutors, with the female judge, with everybody. Arrogance and just to the extreme and just disregard and just trying to. He was alleging things about Barbie that were just crap and it just went on and on. He was just throwing things around. So I had the second thing.
Speaker 2:And the third thing was boredom. I was bored when they went through all kinds of these legalistic split like appeared to me as a non-lawyer, splitting hairs kind of times. That were just stupid. But when House was on, sometimes I was so angry. There were times I was saying out loud that asshole, you know, cursing yeah and um, there was a, there was a, uh, somebody from alnoma county, uh, sworn officer, sitting right next to me to look over at me, you know, and I went oh man, I'm gonna get my ass thrown out of this courtroom. And I did not want that to happen because I was there, as far as I was concerned, as much to support susan as anything. So I gave I would give myself a time out. I had to walk away. I could not. When house was on, sometimes I had to walk away. I could not. When house was on, sometimes I had to walk out because I, frankly, I thought of myself as being able to control my emotions, but I couldn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was really tough. You know I didn't. I've been testifying a long time. I've testified in a lot of trials. I've had a lot of defense attorneys go after me. Stephen Howes took this sort of whole new level, you know, and he took it to that level because he didn't have a case. He took it to the level because the evidence was clear and convincing that his client, my defendant, was clearly responsible for the crimes committed against Barbara. And when you're desperate you literally will attack anything you you know, including the color of the carpet in the courtroom, if you think that's going to get you off. And that's what he did.
Speaker 1:Um, I have other podcasts where I talk about that testimony specifically and talk about the impact that it had. So I won't go into too much on here about it, but it was very, very challenging to sit there and take his abuse. I remember thinking and I still feel this way that if he was dying in front of me I wouldn't save him, if he was choking I wouldn't give him a Heimlich, if he was on fire I wouldn't piss on him to put him out and, uh, if he got hit by a car I might not call the paramedics. I just can't stand him. Other than that, I'm sure he's a great guy Speaking of the testimony. So what was it like sitting there when I, when he was cross examining me and the hell that he's putting me through, me through? Before we answer that, was there ever a time he was throwing up some arguments? Obviously that would cast some shadow of doubt on the state's case. Was there ever any time when you guys believed his tale of lies, his story of lies?
Speaker 3:No, no, okay, I didn't Not once. All right.
Speaker 2:The only concern I'm sorry, the only concern that I had was not believing him. I was just concerned because I did see him as much as an odious person as I saw him, as I also saw him, unfortunately, as very smart and very strategic as well, and probably effective in his youth, you know, uh, when he wasn't offending everybody left and right. My concern during the whole time was god he's going to sit there and provoke some kind of reaction or get grounds for an appeal or a mistrial or something. My concern always was with him and beginning and during the trial, that he's going to find a way to throw this out, that the guy's going to get off on a technicality. There's never a question of the guy's guilt. Obviously. I don't think anybody's mind including it.
Speaker 1:And what was it like watching his cross examination of me? Did you guys have confidence in the case? Did he cast a shadow of doubt? Did it inspire anger? Confidence in the case? Did he cast a shadow of doubt? Did it inspire anger?
Speaker 3:What was it? I kind of wanted to go over and hit him a little bit.
Speaker 1:I thought you're not the only one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know, I just think he was just babbling on, trying to do whatever he could do to make it. You know, for his, the guys getting away from it, you know, and I thought you, you, you took it very well and it wasn't easy, I know, that's what I remember Mostly. It's just he, he wasn't going to give up, that's what.
Speaker 2:I remember mostly it's just he wasn't going to give up. I wondered during the case, again as a non-lawyer, whether he was being so obnoxious because I've never seen him in other circumstances just to try to again provoke a reaction from the judge or an excuse from you or a judge or anyone. Again that would go aha. So he did something inappropriate to try to create this kind of blog.
Speaker 2:When I watched you during the time, I had absolute confidence.
Speaker 2:I saw you being very tight, tightly controlled during this time and I felt really, on one hand, bad for you. On another hand, I had total confidence that you had enough control self-control to not wipe the floor with him or do something or say something inappropriate that would give him what he really most wanted, which was some kind of reaction that would disqualify you in his mind and in the mind of the judge somehow that you were incompetent and therefore that, trialed over to what you did. The arrest was a bad thing, was a bad change of custody, whatever the heck he was looking for, I don't know. So I felt bad for you. I had confidence in you and I watched from the back I'm watching the back of the attorneys, the prosecutors, my read on them again non-lawyer, and what I could see from the back was they were giving you. I thought they had confidence in you that you could handle him, even though I saw one of them in particular kind of like wincing a few times, although I think in a controlled fashion. Maybe I'm imagining it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, that's good to hear, because from my side of the stand, you got to understand I'm not privileged to what else is happening in that courtroom. I don't know what other testimony is. I've been gagged so I can't talk to anybody and all I know is I am getting beat by Stephen Howes, you know, emotionally, verbally, not that he's beating me on the case, on the merits of the case, but he's just being a complete asshole and they're not saying anything, you know. So for me that caused a lot of anger because I'm like. I know, in a normal courtroom you'd be objecting to all this, but today you're letting me take it and I was so caught up in that emotion I didn't understand that they had confidence in what I was doing and saying and I felt like I hope that the family, you guys in particular, are not buying this line of bullshit being thrown out by Stephen house. So that was the other side of it and I couldn't talk to anybody because, as you guys well know, I was forbidden.
Speaker 1:What about the aftermath, guys? What about after this? What does healing look like? What does therapy look like? Have you guys done anything? Where are you at in that?
Speaker 3:Well, good question. Um, I, I, I, we've been talking about my getting some therapy, just you know that, and just other things that are going on, but, um, I, I felt, though the loss of her will never, ever, ever, ever change, but the fact that it finally happened and that you were able to get this person and I hope he rots forever in jail, prison, prison, I'm sorry, yeah, absolutely yeah, it was very hard. It was very hard. It was very hard, it was very hard.
Speaker 2:Remind me, by the way, later to tell you some other information that I'm not sure is appropriate to bring here about the prosecutors that came to the side conversation. Oh, okay, I'm not sure, sorry.
Speaker 4:I'll talk to you about it later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, To me this was extremely abrupt the sentencing. I dreaded the sentencing. I had been out of town. I came back Tuesday night before the Thursday afternoon thing Couldn't make it. For various reasons in the family, which I've talked to you about, already Decided not to go in person, so I recorded my presentation whatever you want want to call it, which is what we heard a few minutes ago.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, judge sky and I um, I didn't know what to expect. Again, I didn't know if this is going to be long, and when judge sky basically said okay I got 40 years to life.
Speaker 3:I'm like what it was, seems it seemed so quick, it was just done and I said I was like it was yeah, it was almost not real.
Speaker 2:It's like that's it. Yeah, it's actually over, yeah. And of course, then the next thing my mind went, because my understanding again I'm not a lawyer is that now, after sentencing, now the appeals can begin. You have to wait for the sentencing, and I checked that out and people seemed confident that there was probably incredibly unlikely grounds for appeal. But something to worry about, because that's my fear again.
Speaker 2:But it was almost like is that, it Is it over? It was like we're Lord of the Rings fans big time and it's like they destroy, you know, they destroy Sauron and the Ring of Power and they go back and it's, that's it, it's over. It was almost a letdown. It was like postpartum that's it After all of these years. And a letup because between your and it really was opened again when you and Lindsay came to our door and then waiting and having multiple contacts with the prosecutors and then, um, then the lead up to the trial in the 10 days of the trial and the sentencing being scheduled three times, being delayed not once but twice and third time was the charm. And so after that it was just like breathing and I could feel myself unwinding. I wasn't sleeping at all. I mean, I usually it's not a problem with me, it's just a problem with people who operate, and I had a lot of trouble sleeping. So we went, as you know, we went and thanked. After you know, we went and did our thank yous to people too.
Speaker 1:And we really appreciated that. You know, and we spoke earlier about the police department and why couldn't be there, but you know, I know that they really appreciate it with her. I have my own feelings about the police department, as you guys know. I'm no longer there and I have some hard feelings about him, but that is what it is. As far as therapy, uh, you know, I mean, I don't know what your views are on therapy, susan, but if you have any doubts on its power, listen to this podcast, start at episode number one, listen to my journey and, uh, you know our piles of shit that we're stepping in are different, but they both smell the same. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Your set of circumstances are different than mine, but at the end of the day we both got it between our toes and we got to get it out somehow, and if not, you'll continue to smell it forever.
Speaker 1:So I really appreciate you guys coming on I really appreciate you guys coming on and just sharing your experiences, your impact. You know I hope that nobody else out there can relate to where you guys are and where you guys have been, but I really appreciate you guys sharing with me. Susan, is there anything else you can think of that? I haven't asked you that you would like to get out there.
Speaker 3:I don't think so. Is there anything? I'm glad you're asking me. Yeah, I know I can't really think of anything, other than when you guys came in that evening it was like, oh my, my god, it's really going to happen. You know, really, something's maybe going to happen, and that was that alone, you know. And I remember we called alice on the phone and she's crying and I'm crying. It's like, yes, has to happen we were all crying and uh what about you, robert?
Speaker 2:um, just I want to thank you. We were told that Deanna, the criminalist at you who you Know Well, I know, and who't have a word aggressive, I think, ardent and smart and determined and effective detective there, was on the force there and, uh, I'm just really thankful because I don't believe it would have happened without you, aaron. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys so much for that. Um, uh, I'm glad that my peers had faith in me and, like I said a second ago, you know, it's just by the grace of God, it's by my faith, it's by my training experience, my own personal experiences in my lives that you guys are unaware of, they gave me the drive and the ambition to turn over every rock and to solve the cases that were presented to me. Um, you know, and I, one of the mottos of this podcast is my pain is not without purpose. Well, my pain started at a very young age and it was that pain that drove me to ultimately out of work, but that drove me for the passion that I had for closing cases for child abuse victims, sex abuse victims and homicide victims. So I'm really thankful I can be a part of your guys's life and, uh, that moment in your living room that night will always be imprinted in my mind. So thank you guys so much.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're so welcome, thank you, thank you that, yeah, yeah. So thank you guys so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're so welcome thank you truly love you guys. If you guys ever need anything, you got my number. I'm a phone call away anything we can do here.
Speaker 3:You play music, I will.
Speaker 1:December 6th, whatever that Friday is, I'll send you an invite, alright, you guys? You guys have a wonderful evening.
Speaker 3:You too Take care.
Speaker 1:Bye guys, so I'll leave you with these words. This is from Patrice Spangler. This is a victim impact statement that was read during the sentencing of this case. Here it goes as a public record shows, I was a kidnapping victim of Mr Plimpton's in February of 1985. I was fortunate in that I managed to escape the captivity of Mr Plimpton's grasp. Otherwise, I have no doubt that my family would have joined the ranks of parents and siblings of murdered children. It is because I did manage to escape Robert Plimpton before he was able to pursue whatever rape and homicidal ideations he had at that time. I am now classified as a kidnapping victim.
Speaker 1:A kidnapping victim, mr Plimpton is a predator, a repeat offender with historical proof in having two proven cases in which he attacked innocent women. Sadly, I've read about a sodomy rape attempt that involved Mr Plimpton. However, there was lack of convincing evidence needed to prosecute him. There are probably more victims I am not aware of. We may never know just how many women he has attacked, raped and or murdered. We do know he attacked Barbara May Tucker in January of 1980. The violence she endured speaks volumes to Robert Plimpton's predatory nature. Barbara was not as fortunate as I was in 1985. She was not as successful in her attempt to escape Mr Plimpton as hard as she tried. Barbara died by Robert Plimpton's hands and no remorse he continued to seek more victims.
Speaker 1:On February 14th of 1985, I was walking home from the Fred Meyer store in Burnside in Gresham. I was walking up Powell Boulevard when Mr Robert Plimpton stopped his truck and offered me a ride. I was tired from walking and the backpack I was wearing was heavy, and so, foolishly, I accepted his offer. I sat in the passenger seat and was thinking of saying thank you, and my stop is just a couple of blocks up the road. However, I never got the chance to say anything, as the next thing I knew I had been slammed against the floor of his truck by my hair. He forced my face into the hump of the truck floor board, ordering me to stay down. He said he had a knife and if I didn't cooperate he would use it. I remember the radio was playing the song I Want to Know what Love Is by Foreigner. I was terrified, of course, and then, after a short time, he stopped driving and parked the truck.
Speaker 1:At that time I had no idea where we were. I was being held down as I was. He then proceeded to forcibly bind my hands behind my back with duct tape. The backpack I was wearing contained a gallon of milk and a one-pound package of M&M's candy I had purchased at Fred Meyer intending to celebrate Valentine's Day. When he finished taping my hands behind my back, he told me to look up so he could put tape over my eyes, and then he began trying to place the duct tape over my eyes. He again repeated that he had a knife. My terror felt at that time simple words cannot express.
Speaker 1:I began to struggle and look for a knife. Not seeing a knife, I continued to struggle and looked for a knife. Not seeing a knife, I continued to struggle. He taped my wrist together over the lower portion of my backpack and I found that my hands had slipped under the gallon of milk in my backpack. During my struggle, the change of location served to loosen the tape binding my wrist, so I was able to pull my hands free.
Speaker 1:I then decided to hit him with a double fist in the groin, and did so with all my might. He was surprised by my sudden, unexpected punch to his crotch area, giving me the chance to escape. I immediately reached for the passenger door and I was able to open it, fumbling my way out and falling outside of the truck onto the ground. I got up, ran a few yards but then stopped and turned around to see the truck onto the ground. I got up, ran a few yards but then stopped and turned around to see the truck license plate number. I stood there ready to run, tearing the tape off my wrist and repeating the license plate to myself in order to recall it later. Plimpton drove away after a minute.
Speaker 1:Knowing his attempt to capture me had failed, I ran into the paint store and pleaded with the worker to call 911. The police arrived and took my statement. The officer went out to the gravel area where Plimpton had stopped and picked up the duct tape I had ripped from my wrists in a desire to be rid of it. Later I had hair samples taken for testing from the county. I was told Mr Plimpton had purchased the truck from someone and had not registered it in his name. They found the truck and Robert Plimpton. The police found my hair in his truck, a large hunting knife and a roll of duct tape that matched the tape picked up by the officer from the place of the incident.
Speaker 1:I testified before a grand jury and learned later that Robert Plimpton accepted his deal. There was no trial. He was convicted for second-degree kidnapping. I could have easily been his next victim, his next murder victim, but would have I been his second murder victim? Barbara May was murdered in 1980, and I suppose it's possible that he went five years without attacking and or killing any other women, but I don't think he waited that long. There is no doubt that he killed Barbara Mae Tucker. I hope that with time at some point we will learn of his unknown victims and that he has brought to justice for each one. We can ensure that Robert Plimpton never has the opportunity to cause one more family the unspeakable loss of a loved one. I didn't know Barbara, but we will forever be linked by our individual fates involving Robert Plimpton. I pray she rests in peace and her family can find solace in knowing her perpetrator has been caught and convicted.
Speaker 1:Thank you for giving me the opportunity to give testimony in this case, patrice. Ladies and gentlemen, I've taken you through a cold case homicide Through the investigation, through the complexities, through the emotional turmoil, trials, tribulations, the impact that it has on not only family members but the community. You see these things on television and you think, man, that's cool, there's some entertainment value there. But I'm hoping that I could, through this podcast, invite you into the inside world of not only the investigator, which sometimes you get a glance of, into the killer's perspective, into the victim's perspective and, in this case, into the perspective of a woman who narrowly escaped the grasp of a killer, as Patrice alluded to.
Speaker 1:Are there others? I don't know. Will we find out more in the future? I don't know. I think everybody involved in this case believes that Barbara Tucker and Patrice were not his only two victims. What you know and what you can prove, as one of my early FTOs told me, are often two different things. Ladies and gentlemen, hopefully you've enjoyed tonight's episode and you've got to look at a cold case, homicide investigation, from perspectives that maybe you might've never got. Stay safe, tell your loved ones you love them. And, ladies and gentlemen, that is the murders to music podcast.
